Manifesting a More Beautiful Internet with Rob Hardy
You're listening to Grief and Pizza, a podcast exploring the highs and lows at the intersection of business and emotional well-being. In this episode, we're speaking with Rob Hardy, a writer and entrepreneur from the ungated life. Rob describes himself as being in devotional pursuit of a more beautiful Internet and as a writer of manifestos. I've been following his work for about a year now, and a piece that he wrote in late December of last year called The Source was really foundational to changing my perspective on self development. I shared this article so many times with people in my community and family, and we were really excited to dive into what makes manifesto so uniquely powerful.
Marie:OMG. Hello. Hey, Rob.
Ben:Hey, Rob. How's it going? Good. How you
Marie:guys doing? Awesome. So good to connect.
Rob:Yeah. Likewise. It's one of those weird, like, feel like I've already known you guys for a while moments, but meeting for the yeah. I don't know.
Marie:Exactly. It's like, I don't even know how long we've sort of been following each other online, but I feel like anytime your name comes up or your work pops up, I'm always like, yes, Rob. There's such resonance in what you write. So Ben and I are huge fans of your work.
Rob:That feels good. Thank you.
Marie:That's awesome. Well, yeah, maybe we can kick things off with just the fact that we love your writing. We're so excited to talk with you. And I love the way you describe yourself in your bio as being in devotional pursuit of a more beautiful internet. I would love to know what does a more beautiful internet look like to you?
Rob:Oh, man. Yeah. It's so interesting how I like, I'm I'm in one of these periods of I don't know. I'd call it, like, self renewal. And after life kind of blew up and whatever, and I there's a lot of, like, looking back at all of the work I've done over the years.
Rob:And somehow, like, that thread of, like, building a more beautiful Internet is at the heart of all of it. It's like it's always been about yeah. I don't know. There's something there about connection. It's like the Internet as a vehicle for connecting with people rather than making the number go up, you know, the follower count, the view count, the the metrics.
Rob:There's something inherent there just about the promise of the Internet of finding uniquely your people, like, however fucking weird you are, like, whatever whatever the thing is that makes you feel very alive, but also very isolated. Like, the promise of the Internet is that even if there's nobody in your, like, local world or your physical world who actually gets it, that you can still be connected to people who are uniquely freaky like you and whatever the thing happens to be. And that you can build those kind of rich little communities of connection based on the things that bring you alive, based on the things that make you, I don't know, just kind of light you up. So that's, like, one piece of it. And I think that branches out into the whole creator economy world.
Rob:Like, how do you create work that brings you alive that's an act of, like, connecting to yourself and then sharing it in the service of connecting with others, not to make the number go up, but, to put a little piece of yourself out into the world that others can kind of touch and connect to. And so I don't know. I feel like there's a whole bunch of different, like, layers to that onion.
Marie:Yeah. Like, you know, we think of you as the the manifesto guy. And you have, you know, manifestos as a service. You've written multiple manifestos. Do you feel like, you know, manifestos are kind of one of the maybe quickest, easiest ways to kind of put your raw self out there and call your people?
Marie:Like, how did your how did that begin for you, the the idea of being the manifesto guy? I don't even,
Rob:this is another one of those, like, looking back. I have only started calling myself the manifesto I don't even know if I would call myself the manifesto guy. It sounds kind of cringe when you say it out loud. But there's it's one of those things I was I was looking back through one of my old journals from, like, 02/2015 when I was starting my first little, like, online creator, but nobody used the word creator in 02/2015. But there was, like, a a daily little checkbox of, like, finish the filmmaker's process manifesto today.
Rob:I was like, oh, shit. I've been at this for a long time. There is something there about, like, tapping into a deep vein of frustration that people feel that is really useful for connection, but I don't think it's, like, necessarily sufficient. Like, it's one ingredient out of out of a couple that you can use in the, like, the stew of of energies that is a manifesto. But, like, that was something that I've always been kind of attuned to is, like, how do you pinpoint that thing that really frustrates people with the status quo?
Rob:It's like, what is the what is the story that we're all collectively ourselves with that we all kind of hate, but nobody says the quiet part out loud? Like, there's there's so much connective power in just saying it, being like, hey, guys. What are we doing with this? Like, nobody likes this, but we're all just kind of sleepwalking into it. Yeah.
Rob:I don't know. There's like, I like, that's always been one of those those drums that I've I've kind of beaten really well myself. And whenever I've seen other people do it, like, say the thing that scares you a little bit. Say the thing that, everybody secretly believes in your, like, private group chats, but nobody's actually saying in public. And, like, that is it's just one of those things that reliably leads to a wave of people being like, my god, me too.
Rob:Like, thank thank god somebody finally said it.
Marie:Yeah. Maybe you could take us through some of the the phases of your journey because I think you mentioned you're in the the third iteration of kind of trying to build what you said was like a nourishing, you know, healthy business. Like, what are some of those iterations you've gone through? Tell us about your your business journey.
Rob:So it started out like, I went to film school. I started as a film guy. I then sort of got swept up in writing for this really popular filmmaking blog called No Film School, which is probably still around in some form or another. And I spent, like, three plus years just writing a ton for them. And at the time, it was like, I don't know.
Rob:It was exciting. Like, kid coming out of film school, getting hired to write for his favorite website about his favorite topics and covering all the gear and the it was it was great. And then, I don't know, maybe a year into it, I started to be like, wow. We're just churning out kinda clickbait article after clickbait article. Like, this whole thing is like an affiliate marketing.
Rob:I don't know. I was about to say Ponzi scheme. Feels a little harsh. But but you're like
Marie:Pyramid or say,
Rob:Keeping, I don't know, keeping kind of like up and coming filmmakers on this this never ending treadmill of feeling like they have to buy the latest shit in order to, like, you know, get I don't know. There's, like, there's this whole kind of, like, seeing the seedy underbelly of how blogs made their money, how they kind of perpetuated stories that were, I don't know, at odds with what they said they were about. It's like like, how can we free independent filmmakers to go do their things? But, actually, what we need to do to make money is just keep them glued to screens and buying a whole bunch of shit that they can't really afford and don't need, Ben, you're a musician. There's, like, so much of this in the music community.
Rob:Like, every sort of, like, artistic community of any sort has this sort of, like, gear acquisition syndrome thing going on. But that was actually the first time I got, like, a little bit manifesto y. It's like I don't even think I was calling it at the time, but, like, one of the most popular things I ever wrote on that blog was, like, a I'll call it a screed. That feels like the right word. But it was just like a one of those, like, wake up, people.
Rob:Like, we need to be focusing on what matters and making things that are, I don't know, making just like, yeah, telling stories. And I actually got fired from that job.
Ben:That was a whole that was
Rob:a whole thing, but it was it was because I was building my own little filmmaking blog on the side. Well, it's funny. I was building my own thing because I was fed up with, like, I wanna do a blog that, you know, writes you know, I don't know, that goes deep, that focuses on the art, that focuses on the soul. And then I quickly got stuck down the rabbit hole of, like, how do I make money with this thing? And I don't know.
Rob:It ate me alive. I turned into sort of, like, a must gather as many emails as aggressively as possible guru and build my funnels and built courses. And it was, I don't know, like, I I tried to do it in a high integrity way, but it always kind of ate at me. And I remember I think it yeah. It was COVID and in lockdowns that was, like, the big wake up moment for me where I I had been sustaining myself with this business for a few years, but I just felt like I was pushing it harder and harder and harder, and I I didn't have the I didn't really have the juice.
Rob:Had I'd stopped making films a few years before. And I yeah. The I don't know. Lockdowns just gave me that kinda, like, wake up call of, like, wow. You don't really enjoy this if you keep pushing this harder and harder and trying to hit your I don't know.
Rob:I don't know. Have your first six figure year. Do you this? Yeah. Yeah.
Rob:Yeah. I don't know. I just hit this wall where it's like, I don't actually enjoy filmmaking anymore. I don't identify as a filmmaker anymore. But I feel kind of economically trapped by this thing that I've built where I have to talk about this endlessly.
Rob:And it was, yeah, that was the first sort of, like, inflection point of, like, major reinvention. But, yeah, it's it's so interesting because, like, I was talking about a thousand true fan stuff with with filmmakers at the end. Like, that was sort of the drum that I was beating on was, you know, do a do an end run around the festival circuit, the distribution system, like this labyrinth of middlemen that make it extremely difficult to make a living with films. And, yeah, I don't know. I don't know exactly.
Rob:There is there is something there that, like, that was what brought me alive. It wasn't necessarily the filmmaking piece, but it was like, how do you find your people on the Internet? How do you make the really weird films that you wanna make and get them in front of people who actually wanna see that? And so I like, that was the that was sort of the thing that carried forward into whatever my next business was. I don't even I don't even know if I would call it a business.
Rob:It was more just like a scattering of writing, and I did a bunch of coaching and started doing a membership. And I don't know. I I feel like I've been, all over the place with my business offerings over the years, and it's part of what I'm trying to get better at in in this next chapter. Yeah. I don't and I don't know.
Rob:I I think the last the last sort of era was I hit a I hit sort of a wall with that where I I was working with this startup. I don't know if I'd call them a startup. They were kind of a kind of like a web three DAO thing. They were kind of a writing community. It's one of those, like, completely illegible, illegible kind of Hard to describe.
Rob:But I had this moment where it was like, I don't wanna be a lone wolf anymore. I wanna work with other people. I also wanna have a steady paycheck instead of whatever financial roller coaster I've been riding for the last ten years. And that was all great in theory, but, like, six months of that drove me insane for, yeah, I don't know, various reasons. And that kind of spat me out into last year, yeah, in this weird kind of, like, wasteland of, wow.
Rob:What do I do with my professional life? I don't really wanna go back to being a solo creator guy. I'm, like, scared of getting a job now because I just whatever turbulent nonsense I just went through. And, yeah, so it was, it was really just one of those, like, finding yourself years. But there's just been, again, those through lines of, like, making the Internet more beautiful, like, that that central promise of the Internet as a tool for connection is still one of those things that I just can't shake for whatever reason.
Rob:So, I don't even know if I answered your question, but those are, like, the distinct eras that I've kind of gone through over the last decade.
Marie:Yeah. That the article that you wrote on perfectionism, was that last year that you wrote that?
Rob:I was hoping we would talk about this. Yeah. That was, I don't know, like, October to November, October, December, somewhere in there. That was a weird one. That was a wild, wild piece of writing.
Marie:It it was so beautiful. I remember Ben and I were sitting in in the car waiting for the ferry, and both of us are just, like, totally engrossed by this. I was taking screenshots and sending it to my niece.
Ben:I read it multiple times. And then I was like, oh, you've got to stop what you're doing right now and read this, Marie. And then we started sharing it with our community. And there was such interesting dialogue happening in the community around it. And for me so, like, for for people who haven't read the article, and we'll we'll link it in the show notes, like, I I would summarize the the overall premise being around perfectionism and that we kind of your story is I mean, I should probably let you tell the story, but you're in the in the two between two peak peaks in of shame and grandiosity, and you're kind of, like, general like, you want to be in the valley between those.
Ben:And and there's, like, a certain sense of like, I felt a lot of, like, paradoxical nature of sort of that life is a series of paradoxical paradoxical experiences and that it's really you're at your best when you're able to sit in discomfort in between those two peaks. It's quite painful to be in between those peaks, but, like, there's this there's this sort of middle path or, like, golden path kind of thing there. I'm I'm curious about about how the metaphor came about based on your experience of, like, actually hiking in those mountains. But, yeah, so many great comments in our community about that that piece, and it was really it felt really resonant for me at the time.
Marie:It's such a beautiful piece.
Rob:Yeah. It is is one of those one of those pieces of writing that I'm not entirely sure where it came from. Because I I actually wrote it in, like, the very beginning, but, like, I spent, like, two or three months prior to that being like, oh, I'm gonna write the coolest manifesto about perfectionism, and I'm gonna, like, diagnose the problem of it, like, so precisely, and people are gonna see how, like
Marie:So perfectly.
Rob:And people are gonna see how smart and cool I am, and then finally, everybody will love me. That'll that'll work. And, like, not surprisingly, it just it I don't know. I just kept hitting wall after wall after wall with it. And it did get to the point where I was, like, I'd I'd committed publicly to write this thing.
Rob:I told a bunch of my friends about it, I was sitting there just kinda, like, fretting. Like, I I don't know. It's like, I'm I need to throw this thing in the trash because the harder I push, the stupider it gets. Like, it got so cringe, and I was like, I'd throw, like, my first drafts and my my outlines into Claude and be like, Claude, can you make any of this anything of this? And then what came back would be, like, 10 times as cringe, and I'd be like, oh, no.
Ben:It it feels like a it feels like a meta such a meta piece the way that you ended up writing it from the perspective of writing a letter to yourself and are almost, like, working through the frustration of the creative process with yourself. I've been reading this book from I think it was published in 1971. It's called The Crack and the Cosmic Egg. That is a baller at Tidal Desk. Yeah.
Ben:It's by Joseph Pierce. And one of the big one of the big premises of the book is this idea that, like, these, like the the answers to the questions that we're seeking don't come from, like, an intellectual process. They come from, like, this, like, sitting sitting with the question and really, like, it has to it has to sort of leak into every aspect of your life, and you have to sort of experience it as frustration, as a little bit of a success, as throwing everything away, and then eventually, like, these these sort of epiphanies come to us. Mhmm. And it might be around the way that we're approaching the thing.
Ben:Like, you know that you have it in you, but it feels like there's a wall that that that's there, and the whole point is to run up against that wall repeatedly. And then that wall just, like, softens a tiny little bit each time, and and the and the outcome is just something that feels really obvious in hindsight, but was born out of all of this, the actual struggle and the actual sitting with the question. And that that that that vibe kinda really comes through in that piece because you can it even the way that the piece is structured feels like, you know, we're going on a journey with you through the process that you you know, the struggle that you were because you're kind of bringing us through where you are, you know, this this struggle with with your living situation, with your mother, and, like, all that, like, the struggle. And then, like, it seems really not like a natural conclusion, just really really beautifully organized, I think.
Rob:I need a copy of that book ASAP. That sounds so my jam. But, yeah, I think there's there's something there's something so true to that of, like, you just have to kind of experience the ups and downs and peaks and valleys. I don't know. That metaphor just keeps on giving.
Rob:But there's there's something so intriguing there about how it I don't know. Everything just emerged like one tiny little insight at a time. Like, the I don't know. If if you had shown me that that finished piece, like, three months earlier, I'd been like, what the fuck? Where did that come from?
Rob:Like but, like, the truth is, it was literally, like, I had a I had a frustrating I had a heart attack scare where I ended up in the hospital, and I was, like, terrified that I was dying. And I think it was the next day I was like, okay, I I need to do this manifesto, but I don't know how. There was, like, an actual act of, like, I give up. I need something. And I don't again, I don't know where it came from, but it was like, try writing yourself a letter.
Rob:Like, instead of writing it like, writing this generalized thing to other people, just like tell yourself what you need to hear, bro. And I don't know. I've probably heard that piece of advice in various ways and forums and whatever over the years. But it surfaced and just like this really resonant way in that moment. And I had no idea where that might lead or, like, what I might even say to myself because I I don't know.
Rob:Basically, none of it was, none of what I'd written in the original version of the manifesto was something I would say to myself, which is probably why it felt just really fake, fake and bullshitty. And then I don't even know where it happened or, like, or, like, where in the process it happened, but, like, that whole Patagonia memory just out from, like, the the I hadn't thought about it probably in in years. And, yeah, it started as a as just like a flash of an image. And I was like, oh, that that glacier. And, like, oh, there's peaks around it.
Rob:And, like, oh, there was this crazy wild journey that we got there. And then I was really restless the whole time. And it, like the more I, like, wrote out the the story of it, it was like, what the hell? Why is this such a perfect metaphor? Like, every detail I remember is, like, perfectly metaphorical to this thing that I'm and I there's something there of, like, I couldn't have I couldn't have constructed a better metaphor if I had, like, tried, and it just I don't know.
Rob:There's something about the way it just kind of came when it came. And, yeah. I don't like, this is this is one of those lessons about life that I feel like I just keep learning is like when I try to
Marie:Seems like a bit of surrender. Yeah. Like, you just kind of gave over to, like, a creative process that kind of gave you a bit of a download.
Rob:Yeah. And just one little bit of the download at a time. And then, like and, like, each one was kind of scary. It was like, why would you write about your trip to Patagonia? Like, this feels weird.
Rob:Why would you why would you include all this shit about you and your mom right now? This is a perfectionism manifesto. And it and, again, like, I think that's why I don't even know if I would call it a perfectionism manifesto anymore. It just kinda morphed into whatever it ended up as. Even though it is like, I I still feel like it addresses, like, that core dynamic that at least leads me to being a perfectionist.
Rob:Like that, like, oh, I must maintain maximum amounts of control so that people love me. But, yeah, it gets it a lot of the deeper ways that I have, I don't know, run away from life, shall we say?
Ben:Yeah. It gets into that, I think, with the two peaks metaphor being the two peaks being sort of shame and and a sort of the a sense of the grandiose that you can on the on the as you summit the the Shame Mountain, we're kind of beating ourselves up for the things that we think we should be doing and things like that. And then once we come back down, we might say, have the power to fix myself and we get this sort of over inflated sense of self that you can do anything and you can fix yourself and so you try to summit the grandiosity Peak and you're beaten back down into this into this state and it's this continual oscillation between these two extremes that I think is the is this the the search for the thing to fix yourself.
Rob:Yeah. Right? The they If I just fix
Marie:that one thing, then I'm lovable. Then I'm yeah.
Ben:I I then I then I can do the work that I was meant to do and things like that. And and I think that that, like, the the paradox being that both of those mountains are basically speaking to the same thing that there's something to be fixed. Mhmm. And that the actual the actual sitting in the valley between those two is is saying, like, you know, I I I don't need to be fixed. And that is the thing that sitting there in that discomfort, I at least I find is, like, the one of the most it's incredibly beneficial to be comfortable in discomfort, but it's also a continual source of pain.
Ben:And there's this idea that I think that we have this operating manual that says we should avoid pain, and we should seek sort of whether it's seek enlightenment Joy and comfort. Seek comfort. Seek joy. And then that yeah. Ease.
Ben:And the reality is that the the joy and the ease comes from not thrashing against those two peaks and being comfortable sitting in the in that discomfort. I I have my my favorite quote from the article that I I posted a bunch of different places. It begins with, dwelling in this place feels like a series of small deaths. For to be human is to be wounded, and to be wounded is to reside in a state of ambient grief for the parts of ourselves so pure and full of hope that were once betrayed and now lay frozen beneath the surface. I thought that was so beautiful.
Ben:And, you know, it it really does feel that way sometimes that, like, we're continuously saying, like, I should have done that thing. And and, you know, like, if I only had worked harder or if I had avoided taking that decision that I could be I could have finished that thing that I said I was gonna finish, I promised those people that I would do that. And, you know, you're just, like, continuously beating yourself up about these things. And that, like, that idea of it feeling like small deaths and that we're not really grieving grieving the loss of those things when we don't accomplish what we want to accomplish. And that's what I think how it leads to that sense of, like, I can be perfect, which is, like, such
Rob:a Yeah.
Ben:We intellectually know that we can't, but we still
Rob:Yeah. I have to. And I don't know. There's there's been like, things are still so, I don't know, not great between me and my mom. But ever since I published that, I have, in fact, moved moved out back in my own crib and feeling so much better than I was.
Ben:Yay. That's awesome.
Rob:Yeah. There's something so instructive about that whole season of life of, like, seeing that the root of a lot of those sort of, like, perfectionistic, like, I must strive. I must excel. I must appear to be the guy who has it all figured out. Just how much of that was at the root of, like, wanting my mom to love and accept me and feeling, like, so much grief for, like, whatever version of the little kid who felt like he had no choice but to adopt that as a strategy to move through the world.
Rob:Like there is there's something
Marie:that's all coping.
Rob:And like it's, it makes it a lot easier to be compassionate with one, myself, but with anybody who struggles with these types of things because there's a my sort of, like, default programmed way to to, I don't know, deal with myself is through force, is through, like, I don't know, like, stop being a little bitch. Just do it. Publish, publish, publish, go. Like, not realizing that I don't know. I was using force against, like, a helpless little boy who just wanted to be, like, seen and loved.
Rob:Totally. And, yeah, so there's something there about just, like, allowing that grief in that has just created, like, a softening in all of these various patterns of resistance and self sabotage. And I don't know. They're all still there in one way or another. It's not it's not like writing that magically transformed me into guy who's, like, creative work just, like, magically flows, and he's not a perfectionist anymore.
Rob:Which I don't know. That was that was also, like, my kind of grandiose hope for the perfectionism manifesto. It was like, yes. I'm gonna write this super smart, thing. And in the process of writing it, like, I'm gonna purge all my demons, and then I'll be perfect.
Rob:It'll be great. It's just all the all the silly I don't know. The silly stories we kind of, like, tell ourselves about what will happen in such and such.
Marie:If then. Yeah.
Rob:Yeah.
Marie:It's, like, kind of cheesy, but it's so true with that idea that like finding enoughness, like you have to find it for yourself, right? That you are loved, you are enough, and waiting for other people's approval and whatnot. Nobody can can fill that void if you don't find a way to figure it out on your own. I'm curious if I can't remember if you wrote about this in the article, but do you have a therapist? Do you have a good support structure for kind of having worked through some of this deeper stuff?
Rob:Yeah. I've worked with various therapists and coach over the or coaches over the last year. Right now, the thing that is and I I wrote about this in in the source, but, like, the thing that is continuously I don't know. I'll just say blowing my fucking mind is 12 step recovery and 12 step 12 step communities because there is there is something like, don't know. What gets you in the door is you're kinda desperate about this thing that you can't stop doing, whether it's drinking or not.
Rob:Like, there's there's a whole range of things that people call addictions or compulsions that get you in the door, but, like, I'm I'm still, like, struggling to figure out how to talk about it because it is incredibly profound, but, like, the it's also, like, kinda banal at the same time. It's, like, you show up and sit in a semicircle. And in my case, like, the thing I've always, like, needed the most help with was food. So, like, I, like, have gone to Overeaters Anonymous a bunch, and it's literally just me and a bunch of, like, 60 and 70 year old women, and it's very wholesome. There is something incredibly profound about speaking the parts of yourself that you feel shameful about in this setting of people who see you and understand you because they have been in the depths of whatever that thing is themselves.
Rob:That is and then, you know, there's obviously, like, being in relationship, and there's an aspect of service, and it's a spiritual path, and you're, surrendering your know, surrendering this addiction, surrendering your life over to some higher power, however you conceptualize it. So it's like this really kind of elaborate support system where, really it's about filling whatever the hole is that's inside you that led you to feel like you had it to, I don't know, drink compulsively or eat compulsively or whatever the thing is in the first place. And it's really about coming into deeper relationship with yourself and with others and feeling kind of rooted in a community that I don't know. I've spent enough time in, like, Internet circles to think I know what community meant, only to realize that I never really knew what real community was until I sort of landed in the and, again, like, the meetings themselves are incredibly cheesy, and there's all sorts of goofy little, like, I don't know, slogans and aphorisms and shit, and you sometimes roll your eyes. But but it's
Marie:And yet
Rob:It's profound. Yeah. Like, at the end of every meeting, like, everybody stands around in a circle holding hands, and they're like like, shit. What's the phrase? Like, keep coming back.
Rob:It works if you work it, and you're worth it. And everybody, like, holds hands, and it's like, oh my god. This is cheesy, but also why is why do I feel like I just got a big hug from, like, this entire group?
Marie:And where did we learn that it's cheesy? Like why did we where do we learn that connection is wrong or cheesy or or that even like cringe? There's a woman on TikTok that calls herself the CEO of cringe. I love this idea of just owning it. Just being like, yeah, I am cringey AF and like life is so much easier when you're okay with being cringey.
Marie:So I just I love that.
Rob:And I feel like that's the next frontier for me is like, there's still a part of me that is so deeply afraid of being cringe online. Like, I just want to be seen as smart and cool and I don't know. Like, all the things.
Ben:That at times, I think, is, for me, the fundamental another paradox of the Internet in that, like, it allows us to connect with anybody. But the way that it's sort of been positioned over the years is it's more about connecting over interests rather than, like, an actual meaningful connection. And I think there's something that that's, like, often lost there that, like, you know, we we want to discuss, you know, whatever, Notion, writing, all this stuff. It's really easy to connect over interest.
Rob:But when it comes
Ben:to connecting over grief or something like that, those connections are so much more powerful because they have this, like, sort of experiential component to them and emotional component to them. And that's often that's often lost on the Internet because it's so the connection is intentionally and in even in the way that we have to use a secondary device as a machine to connect, there's a there's a disconnect there inherently when we communicate through the Internet. It's really hard to to actually make those, like, meaningful connections. And maybe maybe there's an aspect of this in going to something like one of these anonymous groups and actually interfacing and connecting with
Marie:Touching hand contact.
Ben:With with but but specifically with older women that are not of your demographic, you know, I found that one of the things that has really opened up my perspectives on the world is from volunteering. I volunteer with people that are half my age and and up to twice my age, in fact, like, you know, some of the older members at our fire department are much older. And, like, having that kind of shared experience through the generations is is is really meaningful connection wise for me now to so that we're not just like, my buddies are all around the same age as me, and we all do the same things. It's like, what are the common human experiences that connect us versus the just the the generalities of, you know, of of, you know, all these different groups that we're that we're part of.
Marie:Using the same apps. Yeah.
Ben:Yeah. We're like, your your friend groups tend to be pretty same same y. And so when you have a really distinct difference in the way that you approach the world with somebody, it feels really really, like, confusing sometimes. And so sometimes you can have a really even better connection with somebody that's completely different than you Yeah. Which is really notable to me.
Ben:So maybe you've experienced that as well that, like, having connection with somebody that you typically wouldn't from day to day, like, hang out with is really you get those different perspectives, different experiences. It can be really meaningful in processing your own stuff.
Rob:Yeah. Oh, man. I have there's, like, three different threads from that I wanna pull. One of them maybe we'll get back to is just, like, the the environment of the the Internet is almost is almost exactly the opposite of what you'd want if, like, connection is the goal. Like, there are so many layers of kind of, like, both, like, technological, like, difficulty that is then layered on with a whole bunch of, like, cultural bullshit and norms and rules that we think we have to follow and, like so I don't know.
Rob:I'll put a pin in that for now. But there's there's something about a yeah. There's just something about this this question of how do we build digital environments that actually do facilitate connection. And that's partly a technological question, and it's more than anything like a cultural question. But the other yeah.
Rob:The other piece that really I wanted to pull that I think has been, like, slightly unwound or is continuing to be unwound by, I don't know, sitting, I don't know, sitting in a in a circle with a bunch of, like, cool old ladies. And I think this this is true of, like, all the 12 step work is, like, it's kind of kind of designed to make you realize you're really not that special. You're just a you're just a regular fucking human who's going through the world and has this I don't know. They use the word disease a lot that is kind of a there's lot of funky terminology. But a lot of it is is about realizing that you need help from others and that you are not very different from others.
Rob:And then you just see this day in and day out. And I think this is part of what I experience on the line or, like, on the Internet is there's this constant drive to be super unique and differentiated and, like, you're I don't know. You're the uniquely you, and it a lot of that kind of gets into your head. Really? I don't know.
Rob:Maybe I'm generalizing, but it got into my my head over the years and kinda spun up this whole story of, like, I don't know. My all my problems are so, I don't know, so unique. I'm uniquely fucked up. I'm uniquely whatever. And it it kinda led into a, you know, a place of kind of hopelessness and despair.
Rob:Because if you really believe that you're uniquely fucked up, like, you're just gonna keep, like, maybe I need an extra big trip up Grandiosity Mountain, and then
Marie:that doesn't work from the
Rob:other way. And then there's going to, yeah, going to these meetings and hearing, I don't know, hearing the the cool old ladies describe, like, exactly the interior, like interiority, I don't know what the word is. But like, it feels like it feels like people in recovery and whatever, where I don't know, they all kind of have that same experience of like, Oh, I'm a piece of shit. Oh, I need to like rescue myself, and only I can rescue myself. And to be caught in those kinds of cycles.
Rob:And you hear that again and again and again, and then you see people who have overcome that by by kind of surrendering and realizing that they're not all that, that they don't can't save themselves through sheer force of will. And in fact, they've done it through, like, work in the steps and being part of, like, a community and doing service and getting outside of themselves and, like, not not thinking they're all that. And it's it feels like it's just, breaking down the self centered view of the world that we kind of inherent or inherent as, I don't know, people who live in, quote, unquote, the West. I don't I don't know exactly. Like, I feel like I'm pointing at this larger thing that is sort of, like, individualist.
Rob:Yeah. Like, individualist ideology mixed with, like, the the kind of oh, I don't know. There's something there about the Internet and the, yeah, the incentives created by by social media and, like, all this, like yeah. So I don't know exactly.
Marie:What makes you different, right, more when you're finding your unique advantage?
Ben:In a sense, it feels related to sort of an American style, like, the the limitations of the social safety net in America and and this kind of, yeah, like you said, individualism where it's like, you you even said, I'm the only one that can sort this out for myself. And when we consider, like, the way that mental health and addiction services and treatment and just health care in general is run-in The Americas, it's that sense of, like, if I don't do this myself or if something comes to pass that I'm not gonna be able to handle, you there's just this assumption of your life is over kind of thing. A major a major, illness, something like that. You're there's that that deathly fear of being without that support. And so, like, these groups might be giving some people, like, that that sense of, like, of community that I do actually have some support here, and, actually, everybody's here in order to provide me support for free, and I shouldn't have to worry about the, you know, the financial ramifications of having to seek counseling and things like that.
Ben:So in a sense, it's it's like a communal safety net that is being developed by the people that are looking for support and that desire to to provide support for others sort of reflects back to you, and you receive that similar support. So, yeah, I think it's very it does it does feel very cultural to me that I think that there are many other non, you know, if you wanna call it Western or American, really, cultures have more of that, like, the self care kind of baked into the system. Because when we talk about self care, it's actually it's it's actually closer to communal care that is actually what we actually are desiring in a sense that, like, there are there are parts of our difficulties that are you cannot resolve with self care. But the Americas teach you that it's only you. You just have to try harder.
Ben:And I think a lot of times, that's where that that perfection comes from that, like, I'm just not trying hard enough. I gotta try harder.
Rob:Gotta try harder. I've gotta I've gotta buy more shit. I've gotta find the right expert who knows how to solve my unique brand of being, yeah, being fucked up. It's yeah.
Marie:A lot of pressure to put on individuals running small businesses in Mhmm. In The US for sure. Like as a Canadian, even just something as simple as knowing if I got sick, like, my health care is covered. I'm not gonna go bankrupt because I get sick. And so the fear isn't quite the same because that socialized medicine takes a little bit of that burden off, which doesn't happen in The US.
Marie:I can imagine there's just a higher level of fear and kind of scarcity that would have to happen where you're like, I have to make this work or else I'm totally hosed.
Rob:Yeah. This is this and this is something I'm sitting with massively right now. Like, I'm moving into building a new business while my financial situation is still kind of weird and shaky, and it goes up and down, and I freelance a little bit. And it's but I like, there is this desire just to, like, I have to build my own business. But and I I think this is one of the paradox I've or paradoxes I've always grappled with, is that you can build, a really beautiful business that sort of, like, expresses your gifts and your humanity or whatever.
Rob:But you kind of have to build that from a place of, like, your your needs are met and you're not in sort of, like, fear, insecure scarcity mode. Because, like, the second that gets switched on in you, like, you're gonna start chasing, like, all the best practices and, like, grasping anything that gives you some semblance of control, which, like, you keep pulling those threads, and you end up with something that maybe superficially works, but that feels incredibly dead. And you're like, how did I end up in this thing that feels like a prison? And it's a whole, yeah, it's this whole dynamic that I feel like is, I don't know, endemic in basically the entire creator economy. A lot of lot a lot a lot of people who, yeah, followed all the best practices and built things that look really great and successful on the outside, but who are, like, seeking escape plans and feel kinda trapped by it.
Rob:But the yeah. I don't know. So I'm in this I'm in this place right now where I don't have exactly the the safety net that I would want. And I actually have less safety than I ever have because, like, it's not like I can fall back into, like, some sort of, like, familial situation and feels like that bridge has been burned. I don't know.
Rob:For me, it feels like a little bit of a mind fuck of, like, I I wanna like, I I'm in this season of, like, wanting to do my best kind of creative work and get it out there, but also knowing that I have to take care of myself. I have to do what's required to get myself to a place of feeling kind of like safe and secure. Because like that is yeah. That like that's the the ground from which, like, kind of business that I want to build for myself and like, live in. Like, I don't want to build a business that, like, covers my shit for a year or two.
Rob:And then I burn it down to the ground because it's like, wow, I actually hate this. So I don't know exactly exactly what I'm getting at right now. But there's this I feel like I'm in this weird moment of like, I know what I want to do with myself. I know what my sort of like skills and gifts are. But I like there's still like there's more fear in the system than there even used to be back in the day.
Rob:I feel like I'm more well resourced and able to kind of, like, hold it and be with myself.
Ben:But It's another one of those paradoxes where your ability to handle stress really causes more stress because, like, in order to, like, push forwards, like, you know, you're gonna have to maybe strive a little bit harder or something like that. So it it almost has that, like, our friend who's a psychologist often talks about this, and she has said to me many times where I I noted one time that, like, I'm feeling at my best, like, when I've done a lot of personal work and rest and restorative stuff, I often get sick right right as my my Right when you're feeling good. You start feeling great, and you're like, I'm working out again. I'm doing this. I'm meditating every morning.
Ben:I'm sleeping well. And then you for some reason, you start feeling awful. And and she was saying that it's generally because your body now is recognizing that you're in a better place to deal with stress. And so it will say, here's all that stuff that you've been suppressing for the last Remember me. Yeah.
Ben:So you you go into a sort of depressive state as right as you come into this idea that, like, I'm ready to do some really meaningful work now and some and really go, you know, do some stressful stuff. So, yeah, I often sit with that, and I'm like, why am I, like, I'm ready to do my best work. Why do I feel terrible right now? Like, why am I why am I resisting this so hard? And it's often because, you know, it's like you have to recover from burnout and then keep recovering.
Ben:You can't, like, go right back
Marie:one time event.
Ben:You can't go right back to the to the hard push after you've recovered because, like, you need some time to really sit with that, like, sit with sit in the stillness before you can go hard again. Yeah. And I to some extent, like, I felt like almost like the last year or two for me, I've been stuck in that where I I'm kinda just I feel like I'm just treading water Mhmm. You know, still recovering from burnout and maybe actually still in burnout and that kind of thing. And it's it's really stressful because intellectually, can see, like, you know, I know I'm capable of this.
Ben:I know what my skill set is and and pressed. I can I can perform? But you're kind of you kind of end up struggling with that. Like, how do I actually, like, start pushing when I feel exhausted? I don't know if you've ever experienced anything like that.
Ben:Dude.
Marie:Yeah.
Rob:I I've absolutely experienced that. And I feel like the last is I don't know. I think it's been, like, three and a half weeks since I've extricated myself from the very strange living situation that I had. And I had a and I don't know. Again, I have all these kind of, like, things are gonna be great when stories in my head.
Rob:And I'm like, I'm gonna be in my own environment. It's gonna feel safe. It's gonna I'm gonna have my sick, like, desk set up and my sick mechanical keyboard, and everything's gonna be great. Like, my perfect environment to, like, get back into shit. I don't know.
Rob:The only metaphor that I have for it is, like, emotional roller coaster. And I think a great deal of this is like, it goes back to that quote you read of, like, that that slight unfreezing and it, like, oh, there's, like, some deep, like, parental wounds there. And, like, oh, that shit is really uncomfortable to be with. And but, again, like, there's more capacity to be with it, so it's releasing. But the fact that it's releasing is just is just sucks to be with it, especially when you have a story in your head of like, no.
Rob:Now it's time to to crush it and go hard and, like, I'm gonna build this business. And there's all those little voice in the back of my head. It's like, I'm gonna prove you wrong, mom. I'm gonna be so successful. Just do why, which is not, yeah, it's not the ideal fuel.
Rob:I don't know. But it has been this this wild sort of up and down. And I will say the I don't know. Like, I like, I I think the the scaffolding of the 12 steps and, like, I talk to my sponsor every day from that. I go to a bunch of meetings.
Rob:And there's a whole bunch of just, like, little tools like prayer. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if anybody talks about prayer, but just like this surrendering the heaviness or the the anxiety, the whatever, and just be like, I I don't know exactly. It feels vulnerable to talk about prayer because I don't think I've ever talked about prayer in any kind of public way. But the shit just kinda works, and it makes it like, three years ago to I don't know.
Rob:Even a year ago, hitting these types of, like, emotional where shit just kinda bubbles up, and it's really uncomfortable and messy is the kind of thing that would send me fleeing into food in one form or another or spending, like, three days in a row on the couch binging something on Netflix or constant like, all of these various patterns of avoidance that I have. Whereas, like, right now, I'm on the roller coaster. Shit is coming up. It's really uncomfortable, but there's like, I feel way more resource to be with it. And, yeah, just to just to kind of accept it and let it pass and, like and I think that's the thing is, like Yeah.
Rob:In the past, I think my my ups and downs were very long. I would have, like, a month of doing, like, really, really well. Then I would again, like, it was kind of, like, grandiosity mode and then fall off the mountain. And there would be a, like, inability to be with, like, the discomfort, and I would spend weeks or months just kind of at the bottom. And then it's again, it's that pattern of, like, no.
Rob:I gotta rescue myself from this, and I'll be at the top again. And I think there's something to the way that that cycle is kind of shortened to where, like, I can I don't know? Over the weekend, this weekend, I just got walloped by something, all sorts of anxiety, all sorts of whatever. Yesterday was great. Like, I was I didn't destroy myself at all this weekend in any kind of conceivable way.
Rob:I would just kind of sat in it. I talked to some friends, like, read some books.
Marie:It's more day by day instead of these, like, big seasons of
Rob:And it still is frustrating when I have that story in my head of, like, it's go time. It's time to build a sick ass manifesto business. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know. There's there's something I feel like the core insight of a lot of the 12 step stuff is you take it one day at a time.
Rob:It's just like, I I don't know what tomorrow holds, but I know that today, I can do my best. And even if my best isn't very much, like, yeah, like, I I know that I can, yeah, just keep doing this, stacking one little one little win after another. Yeah. I don't know. So there there is something there about just kinda like riding the waves maybe, or maybe even like letting go on the roller coaster.
Rob:I don't know. I'm mixing like five metaphors at once. But
Marie:Yeah. That's great.
Ben:To to beat the metaphor, I think, like, the roller coaster thing is, like, a really great great one because that's the way I always describe entrepreneurship. But it's a matter of, I think, like, the difference between standing at the at the foot of the roller coaster and being like, I'm not I can't ride. It's too scary. Versus, like, okay. Here we go.
Ben:This is gonna be terrifying.
Marie:Gonna be tough. But
Ben:But at the same time, like, that that drop is is really exhilarating. And then you're like, your heart's beating. And then maybe the next time is is less scary as the the first time you did it.
Marie:Like you said, the capacity and the tolerance for discomfort kinda keeps growing. And you're like, yep. I know this is part of the the process. It's uncomfortable, but I trusted my ability to endure it and just the surrendering.
Ben:Yeah. There's something really beautiful there because I feel scared of roller coasters when I was a kid. Like, they were terrifying, and I would never go on. And I it was getting to it was getting to the this? Yeah.
Ben:When I was, like, when I was, like, 12, 13, I used to go to the, you know, to Kings Island in outside of Cincinnati and with my friends, and and they would all ride the roller coasters. And I would just be like, I'll just hang out here and wait and go on, like, the smaller rides and stuff. And then I think finally, they got me to go on this ride called the Vortex, which does, like, corkscrews and upside down and stuff. And and I remember just getting off that ride and being like, oh god. What's next?
Ben:Like, I was so I was like, why it really wasn't that scary. Like, what the heck? Like, it was so fun. And, you know, the marine and I just went to Japan in the last year and we rode this ride called the flying dinosaur, and I thought I was gonna have a heart attack. It was so insane.
Ben:Again. Let's go again. That was awesome. Yeah. How can how can we push?
Ben:So I think, like, in a sense, like, I I I tend to feel like I'm I'm always seeking that initial exhilarating terrifying drop. Mhmm. And then once the drop is there, it's like it's like it's not fun anymore. It it isn't as exhilarating as that first time. So, like, for me at least, that that seeking perfectionism is almost like seeking the next thrill in a sense, like, to keep it
Marie:The next new project, the next new exciting thing, that beginning energy. Right?
Ben:Yeah. Like, I I've gone through this, and I I wrote a sort of a sense of manifesto a few like, three to six months after I started making producing music in March of last year where I've I and I'm going through the the roller coaster thing right now with this where, like, I was I for thirty days in a row, I wrote a piece of music every day just to, like, okay. I'm gonna learn this. And I got myself a keyboard, and I started using Ableton, and I'm like, I'll do a little experiment every single day. And I did that for thirty days.
Ben:And then after the thirty days, I shipped my first song. And I was like, well, that was that was pretty harmless. It's pretty fun. But the more and more I build it and when I start adding the the outcomes to the to the fun, the the I'm noticing that, like, the play is becoming less and less frequent because it's, like, attached to this, like, I really want this song to feel like it's, like, a professionally produced piece of music that people will recognize as, like, really good. So I get this I start getting these things in my head where this song has to be better than the last song.
Ben:It can't just be like another playful experimentation. It's gotta be better. It's gotta I've gotta keep growing this and and pushing this. And and I start noticing that friction with the friction in play and creation when you start associating anything with some level of of acceptance from other people or or monetary success and, you know, I had these rules Being noticed. Like, I never ever ever wanna sell my music or, like you know what I mean?
Ben:In terms of, like, have some kind of goal for, like, I hope this gets and I and and I think the Internet has trained us into these expectations around, like you know, I can even look at my SoundCloud and be like, oh, that song almost has a thousand plays. That'll be so exciting once it gets a thousand plays. Like, a thousand people have listened to this. That's amazing.
Marie:Thousand true fans. Right? Yeah.
Ben:But but, yeah, like, the way that the the way that the Internet is designed, it's around metrics rather than genuine like, if I think about a thousand different people connecting and and listening to that song, like, that's so meaningful. Mhmm. But then when I think about it as, like, a metric, it's it's not very meaningful. But, like, when you when you actually meditate on the actual individual human beings that are listening to that song, it's like, wow. That is a actual that is an unabashed success.
Marie:Like, if you pictured a room full of a thousand faces and all those people have been like, damn. I like that too. Like, that would feel so epic. And yet the number means, like, it's totally disconnected from the eyeballs. Right?
Marie:You can't see
Rob:the humans. Totally disconnected. And then you see some other song that's like 79,000,000 plays, and you're like, wow. I suck. Like yeah.
Ben:Yeah. Was it was interesting. There's this person that I follow on Blue Sky, and he's been posting these really intricate there's this software called VCV Rack, which is basically a software version of these you know, you can build these really complicated hardware racks that have, like, lots of, like, cables plugging in, and you can manipulate the sounds. And BCV Rack is a software that I've been playing around with to try to make some cool music. And this guy just, like, puts these experiments out every couple days, and I was just I sent him some buy me a coffee money.
Ben:And I was like, dude, your music's incredible. This is, like, one of the highlights of my day. And, like, I I so appreciate you putting these out. You should release an album. And his response was like, yeah.
Ben:I tried that and nobody listened to it, but I think I've gotten better and maybe I'll consider it again. And then later on, he followed up and said, oh, thanks, by the way. Like, it's a Yeah. So, like, he got lost in the, like in and I and I felt really, like, sad in that moment because I was like, this music is absolutely incredible that what that this person's producing. And and it's, you know, like, the enjoyment of the of him producing and creating this is is is still somewhat wrapped up in in the that somebody else also enjoys it.
Ben:And that made me really sad for for artists in general lately because I think it's harder and harder to to to be, like, a a person who just creates for music's sake or whatever just enjoys playing. So when you see those the the CEO of, say, that son Sonos or whatever not Sonos.
Rob:Suno. Oh, AI music.
Ben:Yeah. Yeah. Where he was talking about people don't actually enjoy making music. And it just Wait. Like, that was his statement.
Ben:Yeah. So that's why they're making AI music because we wanna remove the the barriers to, you know, making music easier to produce. And it and it's just one of those things where, like, I think we're fundamentally misunderstanding what makes music enjoyable. It's it's certainly not the end product. Like, that's the the consumption aspect is part of it, but, like, you know, a a person who doesn't enjoy playing and making music probably shouldn't be making music.
Ben:Like, you know what I mean? It's so it's it's stuff like that when I think when I think about your idea of making a more meaningful Internet is like yeah. Mhmm. How do we connect people such that we can, like, you know, make communal creative acts like that? Like, you know, oh, check this out here.
Ben:I'll give you these patches, and we can do a remix together, and maybe we'll have a contact contest. For example, this guy Moonboy that does production stuff, whenever he releases a a sound pack for sale, he'll do like a competition. And so everybody that gets the sound pack can submit like a a song they've made with his patches. And then and then there's like a listening party effectively, and I'm thinking like, that's like such a great way to you know, I'm really excited about all these creators that are making these, like, tutorials with music that are are, you know, at once making them money because they're sharing, like, a a set of patches that other people can purchase, but also there's that, like, participatory creative thing where they can see their work reflected in the works of other people. And I and I started thinking about that with our program and stuff like that, how we're often giving people the tools to build certain types of workspaces.
Ben:And then when they reflect back what they learned and and educate us on how we might use Notion differently, that to me is, like, the really meaningful connective stuff where our work is influencing other people, and then they're in return influencing us as, like, sort of a a reciprocation in some kind of way. That feels really, really wonderful.
Rob:I feel like you keep saying things. I'm like, oh, I wanna follow-up on that. There's, like, so many threads to pull, But I, like, I feel what you just ended on, there's something about I feel like the metaphor that is blowing my mind more than anything else right now is the idea that basically, like, everything in life is a conversation. And I don't know. I this is gonna be, like, some half baked, like, philosophy student bullshit that I'm about to ramble off.
Rob:But there's there's something about yeah. There's there's this connection between conversation and connection that I feel like is like the like, conversation is the vehicle that leads us to be in connection. And, like so there's something about, like, at the individual level, like, when we're in flow with, with, like, playing music or, like, making something is, like, we are in an active dialogue with something, whether it's our influences, whether it's the culture around us, whether it's some crazy fucking mythological image that sprouts up from inside of us. And we just kind of like continue the conversation on and there is something like there's something there about like, I can speak to when I'm in in that that I'll call it like a conversational state of consciousness versus the one where I'm, like, grasping for control and, like, trying to, like, have a sense of certainty about how something is gonna play out because you can't control a conversation. Like, you can only speak your truth and then sit back and listen and see what comes back.
Rob:And very often, if you speak what's true to you, what comes back is gonna be something that's kind of surprising and novel. And you're like, oh, shit. I hadn't thought about that. But there's something about the way that that ripples outwards into, like, these creative scenes. Like, the guy who makes little, like, beat packs and shit is like that is a that is like a Volley and a conversation, and then the community builds on it.
Rob:And, like, their sort of influences are in conversation with all these little tools. And then it I don't know, man. But there's something there about, like, for me, like, playing music in that kind of conversational state of being is when it feels very alive. But if I am in that mindset of, like, oh, like, music is a means to an end, like, whatever, like, I'm in that kind of controlled state of being, Like, that's when the Tsuno guy makes sense. It's like, yeah.
Rob:I'm gonna type some words into a little chatbot, and it's gonna make music for me. But there it feels like it and I don't know. Maybe all of I there's something there about the whole, like, left brain, like, right brain, like, whatever that guy's name is, Ian McGilchrist, maybe. Like, I don't know. Like, I think a lot about that thousand true fans thing.
Rob:Like, what does it actually mean to have somebody who is a true fan of what you do? And I don't think it's this sort of, like, passive they you, like, you put shit out, and then they consume it. Like, I think it's about being an active dialogue with the people who resonate with your work. And there's this there's this sort of, like, yeah, conversational feedback loop, where the fact that they get meaning out of what you do feeds back into what you do. And it creates this, again, like the circle of connection that isn't there if you're just like, yo, I just released some shit.
Rob:Enjoy it. I don't I don't care. I'm not gonna pay attention. So there is something there about just, like, active connection with the people who yeah. Like, being in conversation in one way or another.
Rob:Like, obviously, that's something that you can't do at higher and higher levels of scale. But yeah. I don't know. I I feel like I'm galaxy braining, and I don't know where any of this goes. But there's there's something about that metaphor of and realizing that so much of my life has been spent in that, like, I need to control the outcome.
Rob:So, therefore, I'm not gonna listen. I'm gonna close myself off. I'm gonna be hyper strategic about how I approach my business, about how I approach my creative work, about how I approach, like, dating or relationships or whatever when, yeah. The real juice is just being in conversation with life. And all you can really do is say what's true for you in any given moment and sit back and listen and see what comes back and just keep following those threads.
Marie:I love that. It's like a good conversation involves a lot of curiosity. Right? Curiosity about the other person, curiosity about yourself, curiosity about what something is telling you. So I really love love that perspective.
Rob:It comes back to safety too. It's hard to be curious when you feel like one month away from not having rent or like, oh, shit. I don't have health care or whatever. Like, there's there's something about, like, our lived environments that
Marie:Absolutely.
Rob:Make it very, very hard to like inhabit that state of being.
Marie:It's like a practice to do, right? That even when you're feeling flooded or not as resourced, how can we continue to practice it even when it's so so challenging? And that's not an easy thing to do, but it's like a daily practice.
Rob:Yeah. Yeah.
Ben:Our first guest on the podcast was, Joe Hudson from Art of Accomplishment. And, he always he always asks us the question, which has kind of become a a personal question that I try to reflect on too is is how how can you enjoy this 10% more?
Rob:And
Ben:it's it is such a confronting question. And the other one that he often asked too, especially in the connection course that Marie and I did a couple years back is, what's awesome about that? So a lot of times, Marie will hit me with a what's awesome about that when I'm in the middle of a morning. Spinning. I I like to I like to I'll say I like to.
Ben:I don't, but I just kind of do this. I usually rant in the mornings. Like, when I when I wake up, like, that's usually the time where my brain is in that, like, active, like, mode, and I'm and and I'll have a thing that I wanna talk about. And so I'll sometimes, like, just come in and be like, ah.
Rob:Coming in hot. Yeah.
Ben:Like, dumping on Marie or something where she's like, I'm still waking up, dude. Like, give me some coffee, and then you can shout at me. But, yeah, she'll hit me with what's awesome about that when I'm in the middle of saying, like, every like, everything is terrible or doing, you know, what we call catastrophizing or something like that. Yeah. And I found I found those kind of and maybe it's kind of a similar effect as the the 12 step type, you know, where you have like a mantra that you can reflect upon when you're in that state to to reflect upon, like, how could how could this what I consider this awful thing possibly be good?
Ben:Like, what's awesome about it? You know? To, you know, to sit with that discomfort and and find something like, oh, well, okay. So, yeah, if we lose that, then that frees us up to do x. If we can't get enough money, then we'll just have to be scrappy, that's really gonna light a fire to to do more, to do the thing that we have maybe been avoiding and, you know, you know, what kind of what kind of connections could be formed by, you know, going through this difficult process with our community.
Ben:Like, there's so many different ways and perspectives that we can change to to make things to improve things for ourselves. So I
Rob:have so much cure I I Joe Hudson, Stan, and I think it was 2022 that I did the master class. But I I have so much curiosity around how, yeah, how sort of imbibing his work has I was gonna say influence you guys. I'm curious about it at, like, a relational level, at, like, a business level. Because, like, my Huge idea. Sense is that it the like, the deeper you get into the whole sort of and I think a lot of it is just, a pathway into crazy, like, nondual spiritual experiences.
Rob:But it's he kind of frames it in, like, you're gonna accomplish more if you feel your feelings, which is really clever. I don't know. Very interesting sort of, like, brand and marketing choices in terms of but
Ben:I think intellectually, it seems really like I think a lot of people will sort of reject it when they look at it initially because it seems intellectually quite simple. And they sort of give away all of the frameworks and stuff, you know, on the podcast and things like that. So the the courses themselves are very much practice, and it's just like, here's a here's a set of questions and things that you can try. And it's basically getting familiar with observing yourself and and other people that you're talking to in conversation. So when we talk about connection, it's always about this conversation.
Ben:Right? And you're noticing common patterns in speech and the way that we sort of, like, speak to each other. And some of the exercises are quite confronting in terms of like actually actively telling your partner how to trigger you and then asking them to trigger you. And then and then noticing what happens, what's happening in your body, what did you what did you think? Like, what are your priors prior to having a conversation?
Ben:So it's all these just, like, sort of observational framework for noticing yourself and others in conversation, and those prompts are are meant to sort of trigger that that type of thinking. So when somebody, like, hits you with a judgment or something like that, you could ask yourself one of those questions to be like, what's true about that? What's awesome about that? How can I enjoy this this judgment? Like, you know, and and and it's changing the way that you you show up in conversation.
Ben:And the the primary primary teaching is asking how what questions rather than why or, like, you know what I mean? Like, you don't you're not looking to you're not looking for an answer. You're looking to be curious. And that's, like, the core of all of it is how can I show up more in curiosity? And I think for me, it was a profound shift for my goal in all conversations is to be more curious now and and to be more curious in my work and to notice, like, what's what's different about the how somebody might be showing up.
Ben:So just like, if you just are constantly practicing being being more curious, you'd you'd naturally connect with people more readily.
Marie:Trying to control the outcome or control their reaction. It's like you're just being there.
Ben:And you and you by by nature will just have better outcomes in every interaction that you have with people, in your business dealings, in the way that you respond to emails, the way that you teach, the way that you show up with your family. Like, I just got I think Marie and I have just gotten fundamentally more curious over the years because of that. You know? I think we're already curious people, but, you know, you have you have your defaults that you'll fall back into in terms of being, you know, like, judgmental or whatever. But, yeah, that I think that's how to answer the question, how do you think it affected you?
Ben:It's a series of prompts and questions that just kinda help you be more curious in your in your day to day. That actually leads me to a question. I would love to go back to manifestos. And, like, one of the one of the things that we do in the in in the art of accomplishment great decisions course was developing a set of principles that we live by. And I would be I'm curious, like, how would you make a distinction between, like, principle and manifestos?
Ben:Like,
Rob:how
Ben:do those two things relate? I'm really curious to hear a little bit about, like, what manifestos as a service looks like if you're selling that, like, as a product to help people
Rob:Yeah. Mhmm.
Ben:Do that work? Like, what does that what does that look like? What's working with you look like? Yeah.
Rob:Alright. So I'm gonna continue to galaxy brain at you guys because this is just all these questions. But, like so I again, like all of
Marie:this is
Rob:it's interesting how, like, my conception of what a manifesto even is kind of continues to change and deepen as I pull all these threads, and I'm in conversation with it. And I had to even just this week, I had this sort of, like, spark of clarity around, like, what the ingredients of what I'm kinda talking about are. Because, like, I in a lot of ways, I think it's a it's a combination of specific energies that we have access to. And I like, I'm gonna put these into specific buckets just for, I don't know, clean categorical sake. But I so I think about the old story.
Rob:This this idea that there is something there is something fundamentally amiss in the world, in our ecosystem, in our environments that is leading us to not have our needs met, in some kind of a I don't know. In some kind of way. Like, I like, I rewatched the matrix the other day just because it's something one does as, like, a middle aged man. It's like, wow. I this movie slapped as a teenage boy, but now it just hits so many different levels.
Rob:But there like, I think there's this this innate sense that a lot of us walk through the world in that I don't know. Like, everything seems normal, but there's just this underlying sense that something is really wrong beneath the surface. There's this underlying kind of unease with the status quo. I don't I don't know exactly how to describe it. So but like part of writing a manifesto is articulating a problem in a way that leads people to have kind of an oh, shit moment of like like, it confirms some felt sense they have about their about their industry, about their whatever, like, whatever the context is that they kind of exist in.
Rob:And again, like I was doing I did one for the creator economy. I did one about perfectionism. Like, you always have some sort of endpoint. But one of the biggest, like, buckets that you can kind of fill up with energy, so to speak, is articulating the problem in a way that, like, people really see it clearly for the first time. And I think there's something really, really powerful about that just in terms of, like, articulating a problem really, really well is, like, 80% of solving it because, like, there's it's one of those things, like, I don't know, especially, like, perfectionism.
Rob:If you just try to attack the problem of perfectionism, like, very often, it's like, oh, just force yourself to do this, and you kind of end up doing a bunch of shit that's ineffectual to solve it, which just kind of reentrenches it. And I think that's kind of how we solve problems as a society. Like, we kind of play whack a mole with the surface level iterations of a problem while kind of ignoring the the deep rooted things that are actually driving our problems. So, like, there's a lot, a lot of untapped power in actually articulating what a problem is and where it comes from just in a clear and compelling way. So, like, I would put that in just, like, one one of the big ingredients of, like, what constitutes a good manifesto.
Rob:I just put it under the category of old story. The completely contradictory, like, we'll call it, like, the grandiose I don't know. Like, all it's funny how all of this exists in, like, false binaries. But then the other side of this, you have new story. It's like, what is what is possible in the absence of the old story?
Rob:What is possible in a world where you are operating from a place of faith and trust and love? Because that like, that's usually what it boils down to. It's like most of our problems at the root of all of them is, like, fear. We're moving through the world acting fearfully, not trusting others, kind of, like, strategically manipulating others, and it creates all of these ripples in the world, that manifest as problems. And so there's there's something there.
Rob:It's like, what does it look like when we're acting from the better angels of our nature? What does it look like when we're trusting, when we love as and, like, we love, we're curious, we choose connection instead of distrust. Like, there's something there about painting that vision of what the future can look like, awakening people's sense of imagination, their sense of possibility, maybe, I don't know, disentangling a lot of the ways that we're kind of cynical and and, I don't know, borderline nihilistic. Like, there's a lot of people that have lost the ability to hope that anything better could be possible. So I think part of what a manifesto does is it actually does, like, poke at that part of, like, oh, there is hope.
Rob:Something better is possible because the problem has been articulated in such a clear way that is kind of novel that you haven't encountered before. So I, like, hold these two energies, like, next to each other, like old story and new story. You kinda need both of them at the same time. And then I have this third bucket, which I'll call the bridge. And I think this is where this idea of principles comes into play.
Rob:Because, like like, I haven't I haven't done great decisions course, and I don't know exactly how Joe talks about about principles, but it's it's a heuristic for how you navigate reality and move towards yeah. Move towards what brings you alive, move towards what meets your needs, moves you towards what you value. Because I think a lot of us move through the world just instinctively based on fear. And, like, the status quo, the old story very often just, like, reinforces those fears. So we're constantly making fear based choices again and again and again just because that's I don't know.
Rob:That's just how it kinda is. And so a good manifesto has some sort of mechanism, and it could be like a list of principles or beliefs or demands or like it like, there's something, like, belligerent about a manifesto oftentimes. It's meant to be a little bit grandiose, but in a way that's kind of, like, self aware that it's grandiose. I don't I don't know. But it's there to kind of like snap you out of the spell of the status quo of the old story.
Rob:And to like plant seeds that the choices that you make as an individual in any given moment can step you towards the new story. And, like, that's where I see, like, principles or these little heuristics for making decisions being really, really powerful. Because I think there's a, like, there's a risk of just being like, it's either black or white or it's a or b. It's old story, new story. And this new story is some big utopian grandiose thing.
Rob:And people are excuse me. There's yeah. I don't know. There's always this sense of, like, well, that would be nice. We could daydream about that.
Rob:But I think, like, the real power of a manifesto is, like, no. It it comes back to you and the choices that you as an individual make. You as a community, as a company, as an organization, as a unit within a company that you make on a day to day basis that step you closer to this new story that you want to manifest in the world, for lack of a better way of putting it. So I don't know. Feel like that's kind of like the synthesis of my whole manifesto philosophy at this point.
Rob:So my I don't know. My target at this point is to work with startups and founders just because there's a lot of that that, like, rah rah, we are going to take the world by storm. We're gonna build something that breaks down the status quo and replace it with something, like, awesome. Part of that is, like, I believe that's a more sound business than doing a lot of the creator economy shit than I've been doing for the past, like, ten years. Like, selling little hundred dollar, 5 hundred dollar, like, courses and things like that is don't know.
Rob:I've made a living that way, and it's not a very fun way for me to make a living.
Marie:And maybe there's a diversification element too where, like, you're maybe you're teaching your process to other people or you're writing a book on how to make your own manifesto, but you're working one on one with with startups or companies. And maybe there's different ways that this could kind of come forth in the world to help different audiences.
Rob:Yeah. And that's the that's the plan eventually is because, like, I think the other piece of like, I so I I see, like, the most immediate, like, place that I can help is just ghostwriting these types of manifestos for startups and knowing that it can be used to bring a startup out of stealth, help them raise money, help them position or differentiate themselves. Like, all like, it can do a lot of specific business oriented things. Because at the end of the day, it's a communication tool, and it's kind of meant to be this thing that that really resonates. Because I think that's the cool thing about, like, these different energies, like your old story energy, your new story energy, your, like, bridge and how do you bring it down to Earth right now energy is that it like, it hits a lot of, like, emotional erogenous zones for humans.
Rob:Like, that that deep dark, like, oh, shit's fucked up. This confirms my suspicion about how bad things are. Like, oh, this piques my hope, like, receptors and, oh, a more beautiful world is possible, but, like, it's too far away. And, oh, it actually matters that I think there's something really profound there that it speaks to a sense of like, a a lot of it comes back to this idea of connection. Right?
Rob:It's like a a a powerful manifesto that hits these emotional zones that contains these energies is a is a tool for communicating the best version of who you are as a founder, as a company, as a movement, as an industry. And I think there's something about hitting publish on something like that that actively pulls you towards the best version of yourself. Like, this is this is, like, the the source manifesto that I wrote. The process of writing it and publishing it was a I don't know, some sort of, like, emotionally transformative alchemy for me. Like, it it helped me understand myself and who I am in a, yeah, in a much more, like, clear and kind of profound way.
Rob:It gave me new metaphors to live by, new understandings of, like, the the peaks and valleys and things like that. And there is there's something about, like, expanding that outwards to, you know, like so I don't know. I'll say, like, companies. Yeah.
Marie:I love this because it's actually reminding me a little bit of even Thiago Forte recently did like the annual review. He's writing a book on doing an annual review. He just did a course on it. He had such a fun time doing it. And I think what you're not really selling like getting a manifesto, you're selling the alchemical process that you go through in the process of writing the manifesto.
Marie:And I could even see like I just wrote a little note that said couples manifesto. Like what would it look like to write a manifesto as a couple for your relationship? Like what are we heading towards? So I feel like there's so much richness maybe in how you could position this that I could really see this being a beautiful process that you're selling to people of like a transformational process.
Ben:The the idea of selling it as a service for startups coming out of Stealth is really interesting as well. And I'll give an example from one of Notion's. I wouldn't say con competitors because it's a very different software, but it's a it's the software that comes up the most when people are talking about Notion's sometimes shortcomings, and that's Obsidian. And Obsidian's one of Obsidian's cofounders, and they actually brought him on later in the cycle. There's two cofounders, I believe, and they brought him on to sort of head product.
Ben:But he came in and and the the biggest thing that I've seen him do, his name is Steven Capano. He wrote a he wrote a series of manifestos about the about what they believe as a product, and one of those is file first, that your your data is stored on a file on your machine, and it is not stored in the cloud ever unless you add on their sync service. But file first is is their mantra and the thing that they anchor all of their communications around. And I find that it has such power when you have these very clear
Marie:When you're really clear.
Ben:You're very clear about what your values are, that we value data portability and we value that you own your data. And even if we go away, even if we fail you and this company fails and we shut down, you still have your data on your machine and you can move that data in any format you choose because it's in just simple markdown files with like a backup database. Right? But that like that kind of the those mantras and those and those manifestos and the way that we operate our businesses, like, they resonate with with certain types of customers. Like so when the customer knows what they value, having a a manifesto like that can help them make an educated choice.
Ben:Like so when you say, what are what does Notion value? What are their what is their manifesto? And one of their primary manifestos is that software should be beautiful. And so a lot of their the work that they do is is anchored around these these manifestos that they have that software should be beautiful, but you'll note that it's not really you know, it's a it's very much a renting your data to you through the software kind of software. You know, they are they are Silicon Valley backed, so very different type of vibe.
Ben:And there's lots of amazing benefits to having a hosted platform that is constantly updated in the cloud and that kind of thing. But I find I find those types of manifestos so helpful as a technologist because when a when a person approaches me looking for, hey, I really need help on organizing my life and blah blah blah, I can ask them, like, well, what do you value? Like and, like, here's some things that you might wanna consider. And if they're if they're like, it's gotta be it's gotta be file first and back up able, and it's gotta be private and encrypted. Like, these are the things that I really value in my work, and and that these are important things to me.
Ben:You know? If they chose Notion, it might be a bad fit for them. So I think companies having these, like, manifesto first driven development type things, it's so helpful for anybody that they might hire in, these are this is the this is the manifesto. So, like, this feature that you're proposing doesn't really fit our our prime directives here.
Rob:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Ben:So it's really cool to see this pitched as, a, you know, startup startup style rather than it just being like a personal manifesto. It it can describe a a set of principles that, you know, we operate
Marie:hiring practices. Like, it could help them articulate and clarify who they hire, how they hire. It could help them improve decision making. Like, I could see what you're doing as as being such a foundational piece before people are ready to to scale because they've really clarified things that maybe they haven't totally done before.
Rob:Yeah. Do it. Ah, there's so much there. And I think it like, I think you guys are seeing, like like, well, I had this insight, like, over the summer. It was like, you should write manifestos for startups.
Rob:And, like, just the more I pulled that thread, the more it was like, woah, this makes so much sense. And it's I think and I think it get gets back to a lot of these themes around connection that we've been talking about is, like, I it's like, I wanna live in a world where businesses are deeply intentional, and they are rooted values and the intentions of the people who run them. And it's like I don't know. If you wanna build something that is like a blitz scaled VC backed, like, everything for everyone, what like, it's cool. But, like, it's it's never been the kind of thing that I'm attracted to, and it's never been the kind of thing that I or I don't know.
Rob:There may have been a phase of my life where that was what I wanted to build. But, like, I like, I like, I'm so delighted by people owning who they are and and building what they wanna see in the world. Even when they have, like, kind of a spiky point of view, even when it's, like, clearly something that's gonna piss off half the population or it's gonna piss off, like, 98% of the people, but they, like, they know that that 2% is, like, their homies. Because I don't know. Like, I don't know.
Rob:It's one of those things that breaks the story of business. Like, the old story of business that we've all been kind of handed both in sort of, like, online entrepreneur circles, and especially in the crazy VC backed, I don't know, tech scene. Yeah. There's something, like, really, really profound about, like, no. Do and I I don't know.
Rob:There's something interesting about AI right now and sort of this democratization of coding and being able to, like, build your own apps, where I I think we're gonna get a lot more opinionated software and, like, hyper personalized software and things like that. And I think there's something really interesting there about, yeah, knowing who you are, what you value, and what you want. And I and, again, I think this is part of, like, the process of writing a manifesto actually forces you to confront a lot of those things that maybe you think you have answers for, but, like, I don't know. The every time I I step into the process of writing a manifesto, I find it very destabilizing and disorienting. And I'm swirling around in a whole bunch of inquiry that it's like, oh, I thought I knew what I was gonna say in my bitchin' perfectionism manifesto.
Rob:And it turns out, none of this is is really the thing. So I have to go deeper and deeper. And then it's like, oh, okay. I see what's happening here.
Marie:It's like the process is the point. Right? That's where the the gold is. I feel like we probably are going to need a part two, maybe in six months or so we should like check-in again and do another session and talk about AI, just talk about some of the changes that you're making in your business. But like, I've just I've loved this conversation and getting to know you a little bit better.
Rob:Likewise, guys.
Marie:So where can people find more about your work? What's the best way to go down the rabbit hole of your beautiful writing?
Rob:The URL that leads to manifesto stuff in one way or another is manifestory.co. There's I don't know. There's that cool portmanteau of, like, manifesto and story, like manifestory. Mhmm. But that's yeah.
Rob:That's where I'm doing the manifestos as a as a service thing. And I've also started a Substack that is about this, but I'm potentially just gonna blend it into my regular Substack and do everything under one big sprawling messy personal brand because I constantly find myself being like, I need a devoted container to this. And then being like, ah, I have too many places to publish. What do I do? So I'm going back to being simple, and I'll probably be, ungated.life is my is my main substack and where I do most of my personal writing and personal manifestos and things like that.
Marie:Awesome. I can't wait to keep going down the rabbit holes.
Rob:I'm deeply, deeply intrigued by by the relationship or couples manifesto. There's there's something very, very cool that about that. Yeah. That
Ben:We'll have to talk talk more about that offline. Maybe Marie and I have this sort of long term concept where we're working on a manuscript this year at some point around permaculture and applying permaculture principles in the digital space. So how can we bring more of that connective, like, you know, integrated work into our spaces? And we have some kind of half baked wild ideas around building software for partnerships with that in mind.
Marie:How can journaling.
Ben:How can we co journal? How do we design a software that would allow us to, like, notice patterns in our personal life, our home life, like, as it kind of expands out into the the permaculture style zones, like how far something away is from our our central, like, Zone 00. So, yeah, a lot of this a lot of this stuff is really fascinating
Rob:to me.
Ben:So, yeah, I'm really curious to see where the the manifestos go. Maybe we'll have to have to write a manifesto for for this permaculture permaculture application that we're
Rob:working on. Yes, please. I don't know. I more than anything, like, just hope people write manifestos or go through the process of, like, declaring, like, this is who I am, what I'm about. This is who we are, what we're about.
Rob:Like, just that that process is so so revealing and, like, enlivening. Like, there's there's something, like, it brings you back to yourself and helps you kind of, like, root in, like, what you really value and move into the world from that place. And then you have, like, an artifact that you can, like, either publish or do something, and then it attracts more cool ass people into your world. It's a whole whole virtuous cycle. So, yeah, publish publish, please.
Ben:I'd be I'd be really curious, like, what the I mean, obviously impossible to to gauge, but how many people have gone through this process of, like, just being, like, frustrated with with with their with their reality and, like, trying to express, like, intention into the world that had no idea that it was going to become a book, an app, a community. Like, they just were frustrated, and then and then, you know, that that that friction of expressing it is what actually causes these things to arise. So there's really I I would bet that there's very little when these when communities around these kind of concepts and and meaningful connection arises, that it's very rarely, like, an intention by intention. It's more of iterative and and the, you know, the the churn that I often feel like, you know, you're in that washing machine. You're just getting washed with that problem over and over again.
Ben:And and then for some reason, like, something beautiful arises from that. But there's really no, like, I'm gonna build this this community, and here's what it's gonna grow to. And like, that is very rarely leads to a a thing. And if it does, it leads to something that you weren't expecting in most cases. There there's something really beautiful about your work and that the concept that, like, in in the exploration, like, that solutions arise rather than starting solution first and then trying to design a manifesto on the back of that.
Ben:The the manifesto is actually the development of the product in a sense. And, like like, I even think there's something here like m MDD, like manifesto driven development that
Marie:Yeah. Start with the problem that you need to solve.
Ben:You know? It's like speaking speaking connection into existence by describing what you're seeing and what your reality is and then, like, finding the people that it really resonates with. And it's, like, counter to the 2010s audience driven development where we're just building a general a generalized audience that we can throw ideas at. It's more like it's much more meaningful and smaller and and and harder to do, but I think more rich and more rewarding in the long term. But, yeah, twenty twenties is like feels for me like it's all about connection versus audience, Much more intentional, much more, like, raw and passionate.
Ben:More human. So yeah. Makes sense.
Rob:Yeah. A little bit.
Ben:In in in maybe in in counter countering the the desire to you even said in your, like, sort of primary starting point in one of your sites, like, like, the him reading the statement here, reclaiming one's humanity back from the economic fortress, which turns us into machines. Like, that feels like manifesto ing, if we can make that a verb, is is the sort of antithesis to to AI in a sense. Like, it's very human. Oh. Oh, man.
Rob:It we definitely need a part two because I I feel like there's something about this whole, like, confluence of AI and, like, using manifestos to reclaim one's humanity in an age when, like, intelligence is becoming a commodity. It's a whole Mhmm. Whole thing that I'm just doing in over here. And, yeah, the time is now. So heck yeah, guys.
Rob:Cool. Amazing.
Ben:Thanks for sharing some of your
Rob:Yeah.
Ben:Some of your world.
Rob:And Yeah. Thanks for inviting me on. Just delighted by you guys in general.
Marie:Yeah. Well, definitely. We'll schedule a part two, and we'll catch up with you and see how things are going. I really appreciate your vulnerability and just willing to share your ideas.
Rob:It means a lot. Thanks, guys.
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