Exploring the Psychology of Success with Dr. Corey Wilks
You're listening to Grief and Pizza, a podcast exploring the highs and lows at the intersection of business and emotional well-being. In this episode, we chat with doctor Corey Wilks, a licensed clinical psychologist and executive coach who helps high performing entrepreneurs overcome their limiting beliefs and build a values aligned life in business. We also talk about what it means to navigate entrepreneurship when you're neurodivergent.
Ben:Corey, lovely to have you on the podcast.
Corey:Happy to be here.
Ben:Why don't you introduce yourself?
Corey:My name is doctor Corey Wilkes. I am a psychologist and executive coach, and a lot of the content that I do revolves around exploring the psychology of success. So sort of at the intersection of, like, human flourishing, entrepreneurship, and creativity.
Marie:Yeah. I I'm a little curious kinda how you decided to niche in on entrepreneurs as your audience and even, like, how long you've been an entrepreneur because I I don't think it's been super long for you. Right? So you're still kind of on your entrepreneurial journey?
Corey:Yeah. So
Marie:Where have you been for a while?
Corey:So December 4, 2020 was my last day as an employee. So, 1, entrepreneurs generally have money. Right?
Ben:So it it's
Corey:it's good. Do they, though? Dependent. Dependent. Right?
Corey:So it's always good if you're gonna start a business to target people who can actually pay you, what you wanna charge. But the other the other part of it is entrepreneurs, one, that is a very broad term. Right? But entrepreneurs are generally the people who are affecting the most change and have the the highest agency and things because so the the short version of sort of how I got here. Originally, I was, I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.
Corey:Right? So I actually specialized in addiction treatment working in integrated primary care. So, basically, all that means is I work with physicians to help people who are struggling with, like, heroin, meth, things like that. And I was working in rural Appalachia, which is basically like the opioid capital at least of of the US. And I, you know, spent 12 plus years getting a doctorate, to do this and was was specialized on top of that.
Corey:There are very few people, very few psychologists who, specialize in integrated primary care, let alone addiction treatment. So I say that to say, I was at the top of my field, highly specialized in a very high need area. And then during COVID, by the company I was working for decided to pull everybody back into the clinics. I had negotiated a remote position, so I was doing telehealth. And so at one point, they got an email and they're like, hey.
Corey:We just decided to force everybody back into the clinics because you were exclusively remote. You're fired. They're they're like, everybody loves you. Patients love you. Co workers love you.
Corey:Your paperwork's great. You see plenty of people. You're great at your job, but fuck you. And I had yeah. Yeah.
Corey:And so it's, like, I was that wasn't a brag before. It's like, I was at the top. I thought I had supreme job security. Right? And I basically had 30 days, and 3 paychecks worth of runway to figure out my life.
Corey:And long story short, because, again, this is this is also getting into, like, US health care bullshit. But, basically, as a to practice therapy, I could be anywhere in the world, but you as my patient had to physically be in the state, that I'm licensed in. So I'm licensed in the state of West Virginia, but at the time, I was living in Kentucky, a different, a state over. I couldn't find another remote job based in West Virginia. I wasn't willing to move back because we had just moved to Kentucky a couple months prior to that.
Corey:And in order for me to get licensed in Kentucky, it would have taken, like, 46 months just because, like, the board only meets every other month, and they only see 2 or 3 people at a time. Oh, wow. So I was like, fuck me. Like, I've I've literally spent 12 years of my life to practice therapy, and I can't practice therapy anymore. Like, what do I do with all of this training and student loan debt?
Corey:Oh my god. So and and, like, my my last official day was December 4, 2020. That's how I'd I'd remember it. So I remember all through grad school because, like like, coaching, like, life coaching or executive coaching is an unregulated field. Right?
Corey:Like, anybody like, you can be a 14 year old with a TikTok and call yourself a life coach. Like, there there's no regulation. Right? All through grad school, we would talk shit about life coaches and coaching in general because it's it's the wild west. It's completely unregulated.
Corey:Right? So I had all this, like, internalized stigma around coaching through my my grad program. But I'm like, well, coaching is actually what I want to do because therapy is about bringing somebody from dysfunction to functioning. Coaching is actually about bringing somebody who already functions pretty well and helping them flourish, thrive, optimize, whatever term you wanna put on it. Again, as a psychologist in the US, I actually wasn't allowed to help people flourish, because the way insurance worked.
Corey:Insurance will only cover you until you're considered subclinical. So you may still be kinda sad or kinda anxious, but as long as you no longer warrant a diagnosis of major depressive disorder, single episode mild, insurance won't cover you. And where I was working, people straight up couldn't afford it without insurance. Right? So suit super, super fucked.
Corey:So I was like, well, coaching seems the way to go, but I don't know where to start. I feel like I have the skills for it, but I actually I've been trained to see everything through the lens of, like, psychopathology. So I don't even know how to how to make that switch mentally. So with, you know, throughout December early January, I just googled a bunch and found a coaching program, went through that. And I didn't necessarily learn new skills.
Corey:I just it they helped me make, like, mental shift away from a pathology model, because all the same skills really apply generally. You're just dealing with different, goals and and struggles and things. And then I also did a bunch of googling on, like, how to start an LLC. Like, how do what is copywriting? How do you start a WordPress website?
Corey:Like, because like, I I grew up on like food stamps, public housing. So like, I didn't know entrepreneurs. I didn't know anybody on the Internet or who had a business. So like, I literally just like Google and YouTube a bunch of shit and then, you know, joined, you know, Twitter and then, you know, social media. And then I came across some really cool people, joined as as many courses and communities and things that I could early on.
Corey:Marie, I think that's maybe how you and I have come across each other somewhere. I'm not entirely sure because we like
Marie:Adele's course or yeah. There's a few that I think we might have.
Corey:There are some, like, early, like, 2020, 2021 type things. So so that's sort of how I got here. And early on, I would coach anybody who would hire me. And I learned very quickly that there's a huge difference between coaching an entrepreneur who has a track record for success. We're honestly, regardless of how much they make as long as, like, they have a a track record of success
Ben:Mhmm.
Corey:Versus somebody who's like, you know, I think maybe one day I would like to do this, and I need you to hold me accountable and help me get motivated to do it. And it's like, that feels a lot like therapy of, of somebody who's unmotivated because it's like every week's the same shit. And every week is like, did you do the thing you said you're supposed to do? No. Why not?
Corey:I don't know. And I just I got real tired real quick of like that kind of clientele. So then I was like, I'm I'm gonna work with people who I would work with for free because they're so interesting and so fun to to work with and so inspiring to work with. And the things that they're working on fill me with so much energy. Like, when I walk away from a session and I just I I feel like the Kool Aid man.
Corey:Like, I just wanna break through a fucking wall because I'm so excited. Those are the people I wanna work with. So, like, that's one of my questions now. It's like, would I work with this person for free? Cool.
Corey:I'm fine for them to pay me to work together.
Marie:That's awesome. One of the questions that kinda pops up for me, is is around ADHD. I know you don't always sort of, bring that forward in sort of how you position yourself, but you've mentioned you're diagnosed with ADHD. You must get a lot of entrepreneurs, the very high number of entrepreneurs that have ADHD. I know motivation can be a big issue for folks with ADHD.
Marie:So I'm curious, kind of, do you work with a lot of folks that have ADHD and struggle with motivation, or do you feel like, a lot of entrepreneurs with ADHD are super motivated so you actually really enjoy working with them because they're kind of hyper focused on their business or something like that? So I'm just kinda curious if you have thoughts around, yeah, ADHD entrepreneurs.
Corey:For sure. So, one, there's there's honestly pretty high overlap with both ADHD and also symptoms like addiction, and entrepreneurs. Right? Like, I know a good number of entrepreneurs who are in recovery, and and basically business becomes like their their obsession. Right?
Corey:And they bring some of that work ethic and and that obsessiveness to that. Right? I mean, it kind of fucks them all like work life balance, but they do really cool shit. Right? And and ADHD is very similar because part of ADHD, classically is sort of like this hyperactive curiosity and interest in things.
Corey:Right? Like and you're really, really good at ideating. Right? And part so, like, with me, especially, like, part of it when you're when you're coaching is, you know, we and we talk about pricing psychology shit, whatever. But when you charge more, that actually helps you work with people who are less high maintenance.
Corey:You actually people who you charge less are actually more of a pain in the ass, and they actually are more likely to try to, like, hit you up outside of the boundaries you said or try to nickel and dime you for like, oh, well, you know, you said it was an hour, and we went 58 minutes. I have another 2 minutes of your time. Right? Shit like that. Versus when you pay when you charge people a lot more, they're just like, cool.
Corey:Done. Right? Because generally, people who can afford more and see the value in that generally are gonna become a lot more motivated, a lot more disciplined, especially. So even if they have ADHD or or ADHD symptoms, they have probably found systems that work for them that help them get to this point. Right?
Corey:Like, I I know some some coaches who specialize in, like, ADHD coaching. Right? And there's a huge, huge difference between saying, I coach people with ADHD and I charge $100 an hour versus I coach people with ADHD and I charge $1,000 an hour. Right? Just naturally, the people who will who will cross that filter to be able to work with you will just be very, very different.
Corey:And that would that will kind of skew your perception and your experiences working with those people. So a lot of people I work with, they have discovered either through hiring the right people on their team or, through systems. Right? Like, Marie, like, I know you're, like, big on Notion and systems and, like, kind of outsourcing some of that. And you I think you effectively kind of use Notion to, like, micromanage yourself and, like, stay on task.
Corey:Right? My my Notion is complete and utter chaos and, like like, will almost give my my my fiancee who's, like, very organized. Like, it'll almost give her, like, a panic. And she's like, just let me get access to your Notion because it is a train wreck. And I'm like, yes.
Corey:But when I try to make it make it into anything organized, it just it devolves into chaos regardless. So, like, so but what works for me wouldn't probably work for you and vice versa. Right? So I think that for entrepreneurs with ADHD, you eventually learn what works for you specifically. I remember one of the guys I used to work with I used to work at a a gym, like a rec center a college rec center, and he had a desk job for a minute.
Corey:And he sucked at it because he was, like, hyperactive, like, always on the go, always just always talking, couldn't sit still. He was that ADHD kid. But as soon as he switched and got a position that allowed him to always be on his feet and always be, like, mobile and walking around doing things
Marie:Talking to people?
Corey:Yeah. Talk he he thrived. Right? So and I think that a lot of entrepreneurs, if they get to that point of success, they figured it out. Many don't.
Corey:Right? Many, many, many people just get into the to the stage of, like, hyper, like, hyperactive, like, ideation, but they never figure out what systems do I need to put in place to execute consistently. And that's those are very different populations.
Ben:Yeah. I was really curious about I saw this word on one of your, your you had this 4 horsemen of fear concept, and I'll I wrote it down as success, uncertainty, ridicule, and fear, which I really like because it it made the word surf, and I started thinking about surfing fear and anxiety. But the one of the words you used in the patterns of self sabotage that shows up with this concept of theory crafting, and I'm wondering how that relates to that hyper hyperactivity, hyperfocus thing because I feel like in a sense, like, that's one of the the stronger points for Marie is her ability to make meaning of things. And one of my favorite things about Notion is the way that it's helped me understand the way that Marie sees the world and moves through the world better by observing the way that we both use the same set of primitives differently. And then we have these, like, periods where we can come together and make meaning, like, together even though we have very, very disparate systems and different ways of, you know, perhaps similar to you how your wife is more organized.
Ben:I'm I'm a little bit more organized than Marie is, but and, like yeah. So I'm curious about this this theory crafting concept as a as a a sabotage slash negative thing versus this, you know, sometimes I think of, like, hyperfocus can be seen in a very negative way versus can also be somewhat positive if it's sort of informed by those really nice systems and and the ways of, like, understanding and, noticing when you're in that versus, like, allowing it to kinda take you away and and you sweep you off your feet kind of thing.
Corey:Yeah. So so we're talking more specifically about people with ADHD and and how this theory crafting can come up in business and things like this. Right? So theory crafting for people who aren't familiar is actually it generally comes from, like like, nerdom, like nerdy shit. So, like, Magic the Gathering.
Corey:Right? Or d and d and shit. So, like, with with Magic the Gathering, one thing you'll do is is theory craft where you basically build your deck and you pretend of like, okay. Well, if I go against somebody with with these cards, then I'm gonna play these cards. Right?
Corey:Or with d and d, you're like, okay. Let because I know, you know, Ben, you talked about you d and dified some shit recently. Right? Yeah. And, like, rolls or something.
Corey:Like, it's really, really cool to, like, build a character, and, like, you know, write out your character sheet. Like, okay. Well, at level 3, I'm gonna take these spells. But once I get to level 7, then I'm gonna do this, and this is the gear I'm gonna find. That's all super fucking cool to do.
Corey:The issue is when it comes to real life things, theory crafting, it can be a way to avoid actually doing the work. Right? Because when you're theory crafting, it's all fun. It's all exciting, and it's all kind of perfect. But if you never actually take action and and put the thing out there and risk it kinda getting beat up by reality, that's when it becomes problematic.
Corey:Right? So early on, you do need to plan to a degree. The issue when theory crafting becomes problematic is when all you do is plan. All you do is think and have ideas, but you never actually take action. Right?
Corey:I'm, you know, I'm I'm of the opinion that, like, ideas aren't real because they're like, oh, they took my idea. Motherfucker. No. They didn't. They executed when you didn't.
Corey:Right. Like, 100%. Ideas don't exist. Like, you can't, like, look at a fucking idea. You can't pull this isn't like Dumbledore shit.
Marie:Yeah.
Corey:Yeah. You can't, like, pull it out. Right? With pincer shit. Like, ideas aren't real.
Corey:They're they're they're just not. So that's the thing with theory crafting is, like, you stay in the land of of ideas and make believe, but you never have anything to show for. Right? And I think we all have either we've been that person or we have friends in our lives who, like, they always have the idea. They always have the 5 year plan or the thing that they they they're totally gonna do or all so and so.
Corey:They should do it this way. And it's like, okay, motherfucker. You do it or shut the fuck up about it. Like because because, again, like, you'll you'll talk to, like, that same person, and, like, every time you talk to them, it's it's a new thing. It's a new idea.
Corey:It's like, have you have you built anything? Have you done anything? No. But I got the perfect idea. You got shit.
Corey:You don't have anything.
Marie:How I'm curious, Corey. How much of a straight shooter are you with your clients? Like, I know Ben and I loved, like, just straight talk. Just, you know, say it like it is. Do you find you can be like that with your clients, or do you have to be a little gentler with the, like, you just gotta stop your fucking theory crafting?
Corey:So this is the the the value in in building a, quote, unquote, personal brand. Right? I hate that word. But building a reputation for authenticity. Right?
Corey:If if you substitute personal brand with reputation, what kind of reputation are you trying to build? That really helps you, like, not get obsessed about hex codes and fonts and shit. If you build a reputation for being a straight shooter, it it's really helpful because then when people hit you up, they already know how you are. And and so it goes on. So I am very much like this with my clients.
Corey:And, like, one of the guys I worked with, he I think he said he was quoting, like, Nassim Taleb or some shit. And he was like, Taleb said, if you ever have to pick between 2 doctors, choose the one who doesn't look like a doctor. And, like, I'm, like, covered in tattoos and, like, I talk like this all the time except for my grandmother. Like, I talk like this, everybody all the time. So that and and I am a huge proponent of embracing your most authentic self and being as authentic as you can be because that like, when you embrace your authenticity, you give other people permission to embrace their own.
Corey:And I think, fundamentally, that's really what we all want. Like, we all just want to be ourselves. The issue is some of us are either ashamed of that or we don't know who that is, what version of ourselves that is. So I try to be as authentic as I can in every interaction in the hopes that that'll give others permission to do the same. But I'm not for everybody for sure.
Marie:I love that. I love that. And on the theory crafting side, it it totally reminded me too, Ben, maybe you can relate to this, of the way that people are so desperate to be organized with their systems that, you know, the hours and hours and hours that they'll spend crafting this ultimate notion setup or whatever versus actually doing the work. I think it happens in organizational sort of arena as well. So I really love that framing.
Ben:Yeah. One of the one of the big things we talk about is, the examples that we usually give right when people kinda get stuck initially in the Notion systems building is where folks want a a really complicated formula or a code or snippet to be able to show them the overdue tasks that they have, instead of in lieu of completing the overdue tasks. They're now learning formulas in order to create the thing that shows them the overdue tasks, and that stuff's great, but, like, I think it's, like, one of those things where, you know, somebody's done the work already to to understand that, and they can just move through it and be like, okay. Yeah. I'm I'm definitely gonna hit these today.
Ben:And, you know, they're confident that they're gonna do that work, and they can grab the formula and kind of move through it, but a lot of times we get stuck trying to manipulate the system and make the system do the work for us rather than you're gonna have to do some fucking work eventually at some point.
Marie:But Like, when the system's working, then I can do the hard thing. Like, I you know, you must see that a lot. People always think there's, like, a reason that they can't do the hard thing, and they blame it on, like, a technical thing. But when you drill it down, it's I'm sure as you know, it's like there's a fear there. What the procrastination, there's there's fear happening there, which I'm sure is your your jam.
Marie:Right?
Corey:Yeah. Yeah. And, like, you know, it with productivity, right, and the productivity space. Productivity is supposed to be a means to an end. The end being the ability to live life on your terms and spend more of your time doing the shit you wanna do.
Corey:But at some point, productivity became the end in and of itself. I was just like, I have to be more productive. I have to optimize. I have to be able to do a 100 things in a day. It's like, what the fuck are the 3 things that actually need to get done?
Corey:But but I did but I did a I did 50 things today. But did you do the the one thing that you actually needed to do that move the needle? No. But look at how many things I checked off today. Look at all the formulas and shit that I learned.
Corey:It's like like, how how do I use this formula to keep track of all my unfinished tasks? How a better question is how the fuck can you do fewer tasks? Exactly. But but that's my thing. Like, with with a lot of this is even productivity.
Corey:Right? And there's this idea of, like, performative productivity. Right? And, like, I woke up at 4 AM today, and then I did the cold plunge, and then I did this fucking ashwagandha enema or whatever the fuck the new thing's gonna be. Right?
Corey:Like, you're you're you're performing. You're you're you're obsessing over productivity itself rather than saying, what do I need to get done today to move my life forward? What life am I actively trying to to build for myself and my loved ones? Like, that is the the much better question to ask rather than how can I optimize every system purely for the sake of optimization? Mhmm.
Corey:Because that quickly turns into fear of avoidance. Right? And that was kind of part of your question, Marie, of, like, you know, procrastination, perfectionism, impostor syndrome, FOMO, shiny object syndrome, all these other terms we we put toward things. A lot of them, if you actually boil them down, are just fear avoidance strategies. So, like, let's let's take procrastination.
Corey:Most people who struggle with procrastination know tactically what they should do. Right? The answer is just do the fucking thing. Right? Well but I keep procrastinating.
Corey:Like, it isn't because you're not smart enough. You've probably read all the the self help books. You've probably taken a bunch of courses and shit, yet you still aren't doing the thing that you know you need to do. So better question is, what is actually holding you back from that? And it typically comes down to fear because by doing the thing, well, now maybe I risk it failing.
Corey:Right? Then you talked about 4 horsemen of fear. And those are fear of failure. What if I'm not good enough? What if this doesn't work out?
Corey:Fear of ridicule. What if people make fun of me? What will they think? What will my friends and family say? Will the algorithm bury my content because all of a sudden my 100 k channel, I put out a different content bucket and now I fuck it up.
Corey:Fear of uncertainty, which is I'm at a fork in the road and I feel like I can't make a decision until I have, quote, unquote, enough information or I've planned enough or even fear of success. And that seems counterintuitive because, like, why would I be afraid to achieve the thing I claimed to want? But for a lot of us, either like, if you've been the underdog your entire life, success means you're not the underdog anymore. So sometimes people think, well, I'm gonna lose my competitive edge, or maybe I'll even lose my identity Cause I've always had the identity of an underdog. Other people I've heard, they're like, man, if I succeed, I might become niche famous in my industry.
Corey:And I'm afraid that people are going to hang on my every word. And I can't just fire off like a 3 AM tweet while I'm taking a shit or something. And, like, because people may, like, put way too much stock in it. I'm afraid that I can't handle that level of influence. Other people just believe that fundamentally, they don't deserve success.
Corey:They're unworthy of it. So the longer I can procrastinate launching this thing, hitting publish, making the career switch, whatever the thing is, the longer I can push that off, the longer I can avoid risking facing the thing I'm actually afraid of. So that's why I say most of these quote, unquote productivity issues are generally fear avoidance strategies if once you really get down to the root of it.
Marie:Oh, yeah. Some some relatable tidbits there. I think as when I sort of decided to double down on Notion, like, suddenly there was this, like, magnetism and all these eyes were on me, and then you're getting YouTube views, and then you're getting email. And, like, suddenly just the the influx of attention was something I had never experienced before, and it was definitely really overwhelming. And, just like you said, well, I used to really casually kinda spit stuff out on Twitter.
Marie:Am I allowed to do that? And you have all those questions. So I definitely went through a bit of that in the beginning, and I still think
Ben:Are you you start getting those responses that, you know, when you put out something that you're really excited about that doesn't have anything to do with that track, you get the responses that say, like, stop talking about this. I I signed
Marie:up for notion stuff.
Ben:Yeah. Please please stop. And so, yeah, you're you're that's really confrontational, I would imagine.
Corey:Well, that in, like you know, we're all kind of in the creator space. Like, that's one thing I hear from from creators who, you know, have larger channels a lot of times. They're like, look. I started this kind of niche channel years ago. And since then, I've developed I've evolved as a person.
Corey:I've developed other interests, other expertise. So it's like, do I create a secondary channel, or do I try to slowly roll this out on my main channel? I'm afraid if I start a second channel, that'll split my focus and then everything will go down. But I'm also afraid if I roll it on the the main channel, I'm gonna piss people off. So then you have to decide, am I willing to take that risk and try to, like, strategically do it, or do I allow my content to fossilize?
Corey:And now I create I kinda get the sense of, like, cognitive dissonance of my beliefs are taking me one direction, but my behaviors are taking me in a different one. And then I just get, like, this, like, sense of existential angst and just like this kind of white noise static in the back of my head all the time of, like, I'm frustrated, and I feel like I'm just there's there's more friction than there needs to be. Why? Why am I successful, but I don't enjoy it? Why do I feel like I'm being held back?
Corey:And it's like, because you individually are evolving, but you're not allowing your business, your content, the rest of your life to evolve with you, and that can cause a lot of strain on people.
Marie:Yeah. I love that. I I'm curious too, just given the number of entrepreneurs that you work with. Like, are there some just really common themes or situations like that that you sort of, either gravitate towards solving or that you find people, you know, continue to come to you for? Are there some, like, just a handful of really common stuff that you see over and over again?
Corey:So one thing that is super common is around alignment and, like, how do I build a more, like, values aligned life and business? Like, I've built this business, and it's okay. It it financially does really well, but it isn't really aligned with with how I wanna live my life either. The impact we're having isn't the type of impact I want to have, or this business is no longer giving me the freedom that I built it to give me. I have basically turned myself into an employee of my own company despite the fact that I have a dozen plus people working for me.
Corey:And I feel like I can't just I can't take a vacation anymore or I can't take off 3 months, or I can't, you know, work from anywhere. Like, isn't that the entrepreneurial dream? I feel like I have created this, you know, hamster wheel, gilded cage, all these other terms. Like, I feel like I've created this this prison for myself, and I no longer know what to do about it. So that's one common thing I I work with a lot of people on because they eventually realize they're like, fuck.
Corey:I have the freedom. Like, I'm the boss. I have the freedom to do what I want and and put the right people in place, but I'm not. Why am I not? Is it because I don't have clarity on what I actually want?
Corey:I've literally spent, like, 3 or 4 months, with founders before asking that one question every session, every week for months. Okay. But what do you want? Because it's tough to answer. Yeah.
Corey:Exactly. Because, like, it it very confronting. It eventually becomes, like, existential because at first, like, what do you want? Oh, I wanna I want fucking chocolate milk. I want like, it's you're superficial, but then you're like, okay.
Corey:But fuck. Like
Marie:How big do I go? How much do I zoom out? Like, world peace. Like But
Corey:but, yeah, that and, like, it's also like, okay. The things I think I want, do I actually want them, or is or am I just wanting the things that I I think I'm supposed to want? Right? And then it's just it's this complete mind fuck of, like, well, what do I want? Because the other piece of that is, like, finally, with with this one founder, he was like, I don't wanna answer that question.
Corey:Because if I answer it, I have to admit what I currently have isn't what I want. And that includes my relationship, my business, where I live. And it was just like he was like, dude, that's a lot of change for me, and I don't know if I'm ready to answer that question and face that. Because as soon as I really open that door, I can never close it again. And and I was just like, well, motherfucker, you are already aware of that.
Corey:You're just denying it right now. Like, you've known this for a while. You just don't wanna face it. So it's it's a seemingly, like, surface level question that goes super, super deep. Like, what do you actually want?
Corey:And I've worked with, you know, creators and and things around the same thing, and they realize it's like, oh, I I know what I want, but the reason I wasn't I haven't done it is because I'm basically waiting for somebody else's permission to do it, and nobody's ever gonna give me that permission. So how do I learn to give myself permission to do the things I want to do, I can do, and would have, you know, basically a global impact. Me, my my loved ones, my team, my audience, whatever. Like, how do I learn to give myself that permission? So that was what we worked on.
Corey:And then the third one, I'll I'll kinda wrap up with is the the the the more common one, especially like the 4 horsemen is actually fear of success. And a lot of times and I've heard a lot of reasons for that. I've already given some, but another one I I've been hearing more and more lately is if I succeed, it means I'll be alone. Because if I succeed at the level that I know I'm capable of succeeding, I that might mean leaving behind my friend groups because they don't have the same level of ambition, and they may see me as too ambitious. And then either I will naturally have to leave them to go off and do bigger things, or they will leave me because I'm too ambitious.
Corey:I am afraid of that. Or if I in order for me to succeed, I have to fully be myself, and I am deep down afraid maybe I, as a person, am not good enough despite the fact that I've made 8 figures or or or shit like that. Like, maybe I'm not enough, and I'm really afraid that in order for me to succeed, I have to embrace my most authentic self, but I'm afraid of what my most authentic self is because I've spent 30, 40, 50 years avoiding that motherfucker. And that's really, really hard for me to, like, figure out. So, you know, simple superficial, like, 2 or 3 session issues.
Corey:It's super simple. It's it's easy. Yeah.
Marie:I mean, we have a friend of ours that is also, like, clinical psychologist but is moving more into executive coaching, and so we understand there's a bit of a challenge there where they do really have to be kinda separated out. But I imagine, like, you can't help but bring this knowledge of the therapy side of things to what do you want is not just a simple question on the surface. There's obviously a lot of sort of baggage that comes with that, and I I just imagine you're you're gonna be bringing your therapeutic knowledge to that even if it's not, you know
Ben:Yeah. Therapy.
Corey:Yeah. The the simplest way I can put it is therapy is about addressing psychopathology. So mental illness. Right? So there's a difference between getting obsessed with things you're really interested in and having full blown ADHD.
Corey:Right? It's just like if you fucking look at TikTok, everybody's got autism now. Right? It's like, you know, do do you have an issue when your socks are super uncomfortable? That's autism.
Corey:Do you hate this the the fucking sound of a siren going off for 3 hours straight? That's probably autism. Like, it's like no. Like, a lot of people have sensory issues, and then some people have autism. Right?
Corey:It's it's it's it's to that degree. Right? And simply with, like, with depression, anxiety, a bunch of other things. Like, much of this is normal in in large populations. Everybody gets anxious.
Corey:Everybody gets a little down, but it's like depending on the frequency, severity, duration, like, how bad is it? How long does it last? How often does it happen relative to, quote, unquote, normal people, meaning the the the broad group of the population. That is when that's how you can generally see if somebody's, like, psychopathological or not. So if somebody's like, hey, man.
Corey:I'm I'm kinda feeling anxious today. Cool. We we can process that. But it was like, hey. I'm having panic attacks every time I walk into the gas station.
Corey:It's like, you should go therapy for that because that's we're not gonna do that here. Like, that's in the contract. So it's it's about learning how to, like, navigate that line, which honestly, the only people who really care about navigating that line are people with a clinical background. Because if you don't have a clinical background, you straight up don't know where that line is. You you can't know where that line is.
Corey:Yeah. And you're you're also not really legally liable in the same sense of somebody with a license. So that's which is a separate issue. But, yeah, like, especially, you know, multiple times I've had in in coaching come up, somebody's like, we're dealing with business things, but then they're like, hey. My dad died.
Corey:Hey. I'm going through a divorce. Hey. I just realized that my partner, I straight up don't wanna be with anymore. And I'm like, okay.
Corey:Well, how do we keep this related to your business?
Marie:And how do you when there's, like, so many other pieces that are all related. Right?
Corey:Exactly. But at the same time, you can't just be like, oh, your dad died. That sucks. Let's get back to revenue this month. It's like you you you can't do that.
Corey:Like, you have to, like, hold that space and, like, be like, okay. Remember when we said if something gets too significant, that's you agreed to go to therapy for that. So let's navigate where that line is gonna be for this while also respecting, like, what you need out of this session within, you know, kinda due bounds. It's tricky sometimes.
Ben:Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine. Yeah. We'd sometimes I mean, we were talking about this afternoon because sometimes we have, like, you know, these situations in certain teaching and programs where people will say, you know, that, that's my OCD.
Ben:I like things to be organized. And I often, like, get into that mode of, like, you know, okay, intrusive thoughts, like, we're talking about, like, compulsive behaviors and things like that versus everybody likes things to be organized and nicely, you know, in in a line. And some people have preferences on colors and things like that, but that's not disordered thinking necessarily. So being able to navigate that is is really tough, and especially in a really large community sometimes. So I I can imagine, you know, having that type of background would be really helpful in in navigating that and, you know, telling people to seek seek help when it makes sense for them.
Corey:That that is like you know, for me, honestly, the thing that helps me stay sane is anytime since I go, it's my OCD or it's my ADHD. I'm just like, I'm assuming you're using the layman definition of that, which is in no way clinical. But if I see that, like, okay. No. Like, there's actual like, there's some some more legit stuff.
Corey:Okay. Cool. But a lot of people kinda self diagnose at this point, which, you know, very mixed bag because people are learning more about what could be their actual symptoms that can help them. But then other people are like, I got this. Have you ever gotten treatment for it or any sort of anything?
Corey:Nope. But I got it. Have you gotten assessed? Nope. But I got it.
Corey:Cool. Enjoy enjoy your life, I guess. But, yeah, people a lot of times say OCD just to mean maybe they're a little bit of a neat freak or maybe they they they get a little bit anxious when things are disorganized. Right? But it's, you know, like, Marie, like, there's a difference when somebody's been like, oh, it's just, you know, I'm ADD.
Corey:I'm just some ADHD versus somebody who actually has it. Either you yourself or you know somebody who is like, no. Like, they've been assessed. It's it's different. Right?
Corey:And and that's just and and that's respecting somebody's perspective, especially when they're like, oh, I have OCD. That doesn't affect me at all. Whether you do or don't have it, it it is irrelevant. If you wanna claim you have it, cool. If that helps you make sense of your world, fine.
Corey:But if you're seeking services or if it is actually becoming problematic, that is when I would be like, hey. Go to somebody for that specifically because I no longer practice this kind of stuff anymore.
Marie:One of the questions I had and I don't know if it's okay to ask this because you were sort of referencing a client. But when you have someone that's, like, at the precipice where you've, like, unlocked the fact that you're like, oh, no. Relationship, this, this, this, and I know I'm not ready to go there. But they're clearly acknowledging that they're like, oh, I I know what I want, and now there's a there's a precipice. What's next for those sorts of clients?
Marie:Where do you go from there? Are you are you trying to, like, get them to make those tough choices, or is it like they're acknowledging they're not ready yet? What's next when someone hits that point?
Corey:So this is a a really hard thing with with coaching, also therapy, but we're talking about coaching. Any sort of helping profession, you cannot have a vested interest in how you think things should go. That is a disservice to the people you work with. So if I think you should break up with the person or if you should spend down this business or you should go do this other thing, that is fucking irrelevant. Because at the end of the day, it isn't my life, and you should never live your life based on my opinion of you.
Corey:Right? And and I honestly do pull, like, the the stereotypical psychologist saying, like, well, what do you think you should do? Right? Be because here's why. Most people know what they need to do.
Corey:They just want validation for it. So when most people ask me, well, what should I do? I'm like, what do you think you should? Well, I think I should do this. That makes sense.
Corey:Okay. Cool. Thanks. That's all the fuck they wanted was for anybody to see it from their perspective and not call them crazy. Right?
Corey:And that's generally again, especially when you work with, like, higher functioning, more successful, whatever people, they know what they need to do. They know what they want. Generally, they know what they want. It's just a matter of either they are not ready to face it or they don't trust themselves to accept their own answer. So they're looking just for somebody else to be like, this makes sense.
Corey:You are correct. Yes. But I I have had people sometimes who are like, yeah. I wanna go left. I'm like, motherfucker.
Corey:You should go right. Okay. Cool. If left is the way and that time was like I I tell him I was like, it's your life. You have to decide what you think is best for you, which is true, but it's also a thing that I will sometimes say to, like, placate myself of, like, this motherfucker is making the wrong decision based on my perspective and the information I have.
Corey:Right? Because I only have their life's perspective from them. Right? I do I I cannot ever have a holistic picture of everything with their situation. Right?
Corey:So that is saying of, like, you do what you feel is best for you. It is irrelevant what I think.
Ben:I really like that. I I was gonna say that I don't think I really realized that and started making changes in the way that I do instruction now until I started teaching firefighting. And a lot of times we have people that will ask me, like, what what am I supposed to do here? And instead of saying, do this thing, I'll say, what would be the most logical step here? What would you do?
Ben:What do you think is the first thing to do? And then they'll say, I think we should do this. I think I should open this valve. And I would say, so you haven't you haven't dropped it the the tank into you know, you haven't dropped water into the tank yet. What do you think might happen if we pull this valve out right now without the water flowing yet?
Ben:And so, like, get them to, like, do their own kind of working through it, not explicitly telling them what to do. And one one place where I found this really helpful is when one of our our newer members made a mistake on scene, and she asked me if she should feel bad for making the mistake because she got yelled at by a couple other people for doing some mistake. And I said, I don't know. Should you? And it just kinda came up and, like, do do you think you should feel bad for doing this?
Ben:And she kinda just worked through it and said, like, no. I don't think I should because, like, I'm still learning this and blah blah blah. So I was like, instead of just telling her, no. Don't feel bad. Like, just asking, like, what they think they should do.
Ben:So I really like that strategy of just, like, asking and and noticing, like, the way that they work through the problem themselves, and then you can kind of, like, guide them along that.
Corey:So I I agree. And so when we're talking about, like, coaching itself, right, and and, like, the the meta skills of how to effectively coach people. Because whether or not you're trying to be like life executive mindset, whatever the fuck kind of coach or just a better leader, a better educator, whatever. Right? The same underlying skills are really effective.
Corey:You know, things like how how can you build rapport? How can you, you know, active listening? How can you ask open ended questions versus closed questions? Things like that. All those underlying skills are really helpful for for any kind of human centered endeavor.
Corey:But as a coach, fundamentally, your your role is to facilitate transformation. Sorry. It's to facilitate transformation. The transformation they signed up for. Right?
Corey:So the question that I'm always running through my head is, what will help facilitate this transformation? What question can I ask? What story, mental model, concept, strategy, whatever can I share that will do that? The issue a lot of people run into when they're new to any sort of, like, helping profession is they wanna give advice and they wanna spoon feed. Right?
Corey:And and a lot of times, even, like, with leaders. Right? They they wanna just be like, this is how to do it. No questions. Just do it this way.
Corey:1, you rob people of the opportunity to learn and to really integrate. But the other thing is, especially with, like, coaching therapy kind of shit, people straight up won't accept it. So there's this related thing called help rejecting, where it's basically, like, literally people will ask you for help, and then when you give them a solution, they're like, nope. Right? And I think a lot of us have had friends like that at some point until eventually you're just like, you're on your own.
Corey:Figure the fuck out. And when you spoonfeed somebody something, that is more often than not what is gonna happen because it isn't their answer. It isn't their solution. It is yours. It is an external solution, and it it hasn't been integrated yet or or accepted.
Corey:Right? Versus if you learn, like you said, like, if you're asking the question like, okay. Well, what happens it because you didn't do the first three steps, if you jump to step 4, what's gonna happen? Well, shit's gonna blow up. Okay.
Corey:Cool. You just fucking learned something. Right? It's things like that of learning how to ask the right questions in the right way at the right time to facilitate that transformation. And so then people come to that same or similar answer, but they now have ownership of over it.
Corey:Now they're actually gonna accept it. Now they're actually gonna take action on it versus if you just gave it to them. And I've literally had people before. They're like, just tell me what the fuck to do. And I'm like, it won't fucking help.
Marie:You're like, I'm not a consultant. I'm a coach.
Corey:Yeah. Like, yeah, I can offer consulting. It's this totally separate fucking package. But, like, if I tell you exactly what to do, 1, that is my solution. It may not be yours.
Corey:And 2, you I promise you, you just straight up won't fucking accept it. Even if you even if you think you will, you won't. Think about all the fucking self help books. Think about all the podcasts, all the other shit. You've heard the same fucking thing a dozen times.
Corey:But then finally, that 13th time when you came to your own conclusion, like, oh, well, this, of course. I've heard it 12 other times, but I had to feel it first. It's the same thing. So, like, it it's when you are the one who is in inch in in that position of, like, being the facilitator, it is so so difficult to bite your tongue sometimes and not just be like, just fucking do this. Like, not only will it not get done, it will not get done with prejudice.
Marie:Yeah. And I I think there's such a big difference between, like, you see a lot of entrepreneurial content that's like, here's how to 10 x your blah blah blah versus here is what I did to get these results. And so I think saying something like, what I've seen work with other clients is x, but you're not it's not advice giving. It's sort of like, here's some scenarios I've seen that work. You get to pick and choose kinda what resonates with you, but it and so it's gotta come from from the person.
Marie:Right? They gotta bound kind of bounce off some options sometimes.
Corey:Very much, Alex Hermoza. He he says, how to versus how I. He was like, how to content. It feels like a lecture. People will rebut it.
Corey:They'll be like, well, that here's the exception. He's like, versus if you say how I like, here's how I did. He's like, motherfuckers can't argue because it is your story, your experience. You're doing that. Exactly.
Corey:And you're not lecturing. You're just like, this has simply been my experience. And, like, I think that also that that concept has really helped me with with my coaching, with my content, with whatever. It's just, like, rather than trying to, like, like, be the thought leader in, like, you know, fucking preach from on high or some shit. It's just like, look, motherfucker.
Corey:This is what I went through. This is what I learned. I hope it helps. If not, let me know what worked for you. And and the reception and just, like, the resonance because now you're like, you're a person.
Corey:You're you're sharing yourself. That is gonna lie to connect with people way, way more effectively than trying to be like this perfect thought leader person.
Marie:Yep. Stories and experiences.
Ben:Yeah. We have a well, I was gonna say we have, like, a showcases area of our forum, and I often drop my works in progress in there. And we get so many comments that are like, oh, oh, it's really good to see an expert also struggle with this. And and I'm, like, oh, yeah. It's not easy.
Ben:It it gets better because you develop more expertise, but it's never easy, you know, these kind of systems. And when we're dealing with lots of complexity and emotional landscapes and things like that, and so your your your difficulty is going to be very different than mine approaching the the very similar tooling so, you know, this is my experience and, you know, this this was easy for me this might not be easy for you so, you know, try it out see what you think like, that kind of thing. It works really well. And I think, a lot of thing that works really well is seeing how Marie and I use the same systems, and we differ very very strongly when it comes to how we educate. So we'll a lot of times build a a a example, and then we can show Marie's version of it and Ben's version of it.
Ben:So we have a kind of, like, a 2 pronged attack and and and the the same same system being used different times, and people will then understand that, like, oh, it doesn't have to be exactly the way Marie does it or the way Ben does it. Maybe I'll take that starting point, and I'll develop my system, and then they can, you know, share that back to the community and see, like, another a third way of doing it. So I love when students will actually correct me and say, like, well, this worked for me, and I'm like, awesome. Like, that's great. I love that.
Ben:Like, I don't want you to do it the way that I do it.
Corey:Yeah. There's no argument. That way worked for you. This way worked for me.
Marie:I'm
Corey:cool. Also, just real quick. Just real quick. I love that your old aesthetics are so different. Like
Marie:The light is dark and the skulls and
Corey:Well, because, like, my my my fiance Rochelle, like, her office is a lot like yours, Marie. Like, it's it's, like, white and, like, bright and, like, plants. And then mine's like, I I don't think you can see with the frame, but I've got, like, a fucking skull and, like, a raven over here. It's all dark. Like Yep.
Corey:Because, like, I got, like, the memento Mori shit, like, with my fucking tattoo sleeve. My That's Yeah. Skulls. That's some skulls.
Ben:And skeletons going on.
Corey:I just I fucking love it. Go ahead. Sorry.
Marie:We're well, I I was gonna say I really appreciated, you and your partner doing that 10 year anniversary video where you kinda walked through the was it, sort of, like, 10 pieces of relationship advice or sort of things that, you know, you feel have have kinda helped you?
Corey:Like, unconventional. Yeah. They get, like, going
Marie:to sprint. Yeah. And a lot of them were very, very relatable. I think almost all of them is like, yep. Yep.
Marie:That's a thing. That's a thing. And so just really appreciated how honest and vulnerable you guys were with that and, that idea of front loading your baggage. You're sort of like, here's what I'm bringing to the table, and here are my expectations. Here's where I fall short and and all of that.
Marie:I just love how, direct and sort of forthcoming and everything you guys are with with your relationship.
Corey:Appreciate it. Thanks. Yeah. But but, again, even even that like that. That video, it it wasn't here's how to have a happy relationship a decade.
Corey:It was like, these are the things we did and more specifically, these are the things that we did that really work for us that go against the traditional things that relationships are supposed to be or how you're supposed to do things. That was all that was. Like, this just worked for us. But, yeah, we heard from so many people like, oh, that's either that's great advice. It's like it wasn't advice.
Corey:That's great advice. We're like, oh, we do the same thing. Right? So it and it's just like sharing yourself, sharing your story, and not trying to be perfect. Just be like, look.
Corey:This works for me. This is what I fucked up. This is what I still struggle with. Like, I remember I was working with a successful creator, and I was talking about, like, my my next sort of phase of of content I was gonna create. I was, yeah, I don't wanna create, like, basic shit anymore.
Corey:I don't wanna, like, talk about impostor syndrome. And they're like, why? I have impostor syndrome. I was like, motherfucker, you are the reason other people have impostor syndrome. How do you have impostor syndrome?
Marie:And they're impostor syndrome all the way down.
Corey:Exactly. It's turtles. Yeah. Yeah. And and they were like, everybody I know at my level or higher also has impostor syndrome.
Corey:I was like, that is insane. Right? And, like but you don't hear that story a lot. You don't hear a lot of people, like, quote, unquote, at the top who are like, I still struggle every day with the thought that I don't belong in the room. And it's just like we need more people sharing their own shit.
Corey:And I don't mean like trauma dumping on the fucking Internet. But, like, sharing who you genuinely are with people like that, that's the real moat. That's the real like, how you actually build your reputation and attract the right people is just being you. But that's so fucking hard for so many of us to do.
Marie:It is. Yeah. It's risky. Right? And I know Ben and I have talked about this before in terms of some of our branding and being, you know, creative with the sort of D and D references or things like that.
Marie:And it's like, oh, if I put my playful self out there and it gets rejected, you know, is this not corporate enough for the clients that I want to attract? And then wait a second. Am I okay with that? Because I don't want those kind of clients. And so, you know, we often kinda ask ourselves how much of that we want to to bring forward into our
Ben:Yeah. As much as I was getting I was getting really stoked on, like, just, oh, oh, oh, like, the the everything was fun. Was connecting when I started thinking of this the, organizing the work that I'm doing right now in terms of, like, an an adventure model game model where you're you're going through an the core adventure and then doing side quests and the the advanced topics or the dungeon and things like that. And I'm thinking, like, okay. This is meant for, like, teams and organizations.
Ben:Like, is this and I'm I'm like, I can't I can't care. Like, I have to like, this is the thing that's actually exciting me, so, like, I'm gonna do it this way.
Marie:Do it. Right?
Ben:Yeah. And I'm gonna find the people that would be stoked to build a team structure out and get a little bit nerdy with me because, like and it and that was how I got the formulas course done was I I anchored it around wizardry and and warlocks and, like, the magic of of being able to build whatever comes to your mind and, like, you know, the arcane arts and things like that. And, like, I get really animated when I start thinking of it in those terms. And we had a couple students who were, like, actually kind of uncomfortable with the with the iconography. Satan.
Ben:Yeah. Stuff stuff like that. And and I was and I was kinda like, I I I really appreciate your perspective on this, but, like, this is this is me and, like, you know, maybe maybe this isn't for you, and and that's okay. You know? Like, that kind of thing.
Ben:Like, I need to as creators, we really do have to feel like we're doing something that is aligned with the way that we see the world. And and for me, it has to be fun first. That's, like, my most important metric is that I have to really have fun doing what I'm doing, and sometimes that, you know, makes other people uncomfortable, and that's kind of okay for me. And, you know, maybe I maybe I make less money on this course because it's gonna be kinda goofy and fun, but so be it.
Marie:At least you shipped because it was fun to work on.
Ben:I'm not gonna ship if it's not fun. So like, you know, when I think about that, you know, the things that the 4 horsemen of fear, and that that uncertainty and the failure thing for me is really strong. You may know Joe Hudson. He's been on our podcast before, but he talks about this idea of the golden algorithm that we tend to invite in the thing that we resist the most. So if I'm resisting that uncertainty and that failure, I'm not gonna ship, and so I'm gonna feel like a failure, and I'm gonna feel like I I'm you know, my future is uncertain.
Ben:So, like, I'm inviting that in by avoiding shipping. So what's the thing that's gonna get me to ship? Making it fun. Like, you know, that's it's simple as that, but it's that that simple answer is really Simple
Marie:but not easy.
Ben:Difficult to come by sometimes. You really gotta sit with it for a long time. And in this case, it's been almost a year since I've been tinkering with this idea, but I haven't been able to, like, commit to doing it. Now all of a sudden, I'm committed again, and it feels really good.
Corey:Yeah. Joe and I like circle, but we haven't actually talked. So I think I hit him up in Blue Sky the other day. So, Joe, hit me up because it seems that you have a lot of overlap, and he seems like Oh, yeah.
Ben:He'd be he'd be awesome to talk to. Yeah.
Corey:Also, shout out to DJ because DJ was excited that we were all gonna, like, be on this podcast today. So DJ, give me a shout out.
Ben:Oh, yeah.
Corey:So with, so, like, with with creators especially. Right, man? People don't follow you for your content, and it sounds like a really, like, spicy take, I guess. People don't follow you for your content. They follow you for you because your content, there's probably similar content out there to some degree.
Corey:The quality may be different, but the content itself is out there, especially now with, like, all this fucking terror mongering and shit with AI and whatever. Right? Before AI, they were copycats. There were people who would just straight up copy and paste your shit. Right?
Corey:Your content isn't really the differentiator. People follow you for you. And that is a really, really hard thing for some creators, especially creators who have built an audience, a large audience off of what they think is their content. Right? It's like, okay.
Corey:But the the, you know, the production quality and then this and that. Yes. There there are some channels where that that is more so true. Right? At that point, you actually don't care who's on camera.
Corey:You're just watching the video because of the editing or because of the cinematography or some shit. But when it is you, the individual, right, the personal branded piece, people follow you for you. So if you can share more of your quirks and your weird things. So there's this, she's her name's Aurora. I don't know if you know all know who she is or not.
Corey:She's Swedish, I think. Swedish, Scandinavian, something. Sorry, Aurora. She is 10 fucking kinds of weird. And, like, and, like What quick.
Marie:What's her handle?
Corey:I yeah. Look around. Yeah. You just look up Aurora singer, and you'll find a bunch of shit. Like, I don't even know if she actually has, like, her own Instagram account or she's just there are thousands of videos about her doing interviews.
Corey:She is probably the weirdest fucking person I've seen, and I love her. I would love to be friends with her. But, like, she like, every interview, she is unabashedly fucking weird. And you can't help but love her. Because, like, she'll be doing an interview.
Corey:She's fucking playing with her foot and, like, talking about how she's gotten, like, you know, kicked out of a bunch of US places because, like, she would, like, flash them because she's the country she's from, like, it's it's super, like, liberal progress. She doesn't care. And she's like, yeah. Show us your titties. And she's like, and, like, just runs off.
Corey:And, like, she's so fucking weird. They're like, oh, what are some of your hobbies? She's like masturbating. Like, just the weirdest bucket. Like, there's no filter, and I fucking love and she's so goddamn weird.
Corey:And it's like, I'm not saying you have to be that weird. But if you like D and D, nerd out occasion. Like, I talk about jujitsu because I I do Brazilian jujitsu. I've done for, like, 12 years. Like, I talk about martial arts.
Corey:Right? That isn't, like, weird. Like, I'm not wearing a fucking clown nose, but, like, it's a quirk thing. Like, it's a weird thing that not a lot of people do necessarily. But when I talk about d and d or jujitsu or power lifting or or, you know, strength training, you know, Olympic lifting, whatever, things like this, then people like, oh my god.
Corey:Me too. Or all that's so cool. And now I feel like I know you more. Right? We're building parasocial relationships.
Corey:That is what resonates with people. It isn't just your content. It's the weird parts of you finding ways of getting more comfortable being authentic and sharing more of you. It's super uncomfortable at first because you feel vulnerable. You feel exposed.
Corey:But, honestly, that is gonna be the biggest differentiator for forever, basically. It's who the fuck are you? How can you bring more of you into your content?
Marie:Love that. Who the f are you? You make me realize how censored I am, Corey. I'm like, oh, geez, dropping f bombs. I wish I felt more comfortable dropping f bombs.
Corey:Well, the question is why are you not? What corporate people are like, oh, Marie said this. Fuck that bitch. She cusses too much. Like, what are you?
Corey:What are like, I mean, but but here's the thing. Like, when money is on the table and you and you are afraid that you will lose money by being more yourself, then you are incentivized to not be yourself. Yeah. Right? And then you just said, like, I might not make as much money.
Ben:That's alright.
Corey:Yep. And that that is a legit thing. That is a legit risk, and you have to decide Yeah. What trade off is is worthwhile for sure. Again, I'll never tell you you should cuss.
Corey:I will tell you you should do what is what you feel is right for you.
Ben:Yeah. We've we're we're very much like that in in real life. Like, I remember one time where Marie we had a a screenshot. Like, our our friend of ours is always ranting about how much he hated brunch, and so he we put in this in our recurring calendar, like, once every couple weeks, this event that just said, fuck brunch, because he's always, like, fuck brunch. And somebody wrote
Marie:so angry over the top angry about brunch.
Ben:So we just called it fuck brunch and invited him to it, and we'd meet up every couple weeks or whatever because he's, you know, he's being pissy about it. But one time Marie took a screenshot of her calendar for for some email and sent that out, and somebody interpreted that as a fuck brunch. So some kind of orgy Like
Corey:a meat cue or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ben:Yeah. So she's
Marie:like very upset.
Ben:Like, not sure what not sure what
Corey:kind of this is implied.
Ben:What kind of business y'all are running over there, but, like, that's, like yeah. So yeah. Like,
Corey:so
Marie:He's just mad because he wasn't invited. Yeah. Probably.
Corey:Dude, if I saw that and I interpret, I would be like, okay. Cool. That got some kinks. Right on. Let's fuck again.
Corey:Okay.
Marie:Yeah. Unsubscribe. Bye. Yeah. Yeah.
Marie:But it it did it made me more conscious of it. I'm like, oh, yeah. People are gonna notice those things, and it's just something to be aware of, and you just gotta find those edges. But yeah.
Corey:Another thing is, like,
Marie:the
Corey:people who have a problem will generally be louder. So I remember a couple months ago, I think, on on, like, Twitter, Tiago was talking about, like, some polyamory shit. He was, like, asking questions and things. I was like, hey, man. My doctoral research project was actually on polyamory and, like, barriers to to treatment for people who are poly, like, trying to go to their doctor and shit, because they're like a sexual minority and there's there can be prejudice and shit.
Corey:I was like, so I'm, dude, I'm I'm down to talk about poly. Like, I've, like, legitimately studied poly and shit. And I actually had people privately reach out to me and they were like, hey. Thank you so much for, like, being a supporter and being like an ally for this because there was a lot of hate in the comments. And then I got people that were like, I'm poly, but I'm not open about it, or I really support this or I'm, you know, this LGBTQ plus whatever.
Corey:Like, I had people, like, reach out, like, privately. It's just like and that's the other thing, man, is there not man because it's both of you. That's that's the thing. Like, when you share yourself, yes. Some people are gonna loudly disagree, but so many people privately are gonna be like, oh, these are my people.
Marie:They support you in private. So, yeah, you don't see that publicly. You just see the sort of loudest sort of angry, and nobody wants to get piled on, so they sort of back away. So you sort of feel like the general sentiment is this negativity. So it kinda skews your perception.
Ben:I found that conversation really interesting too because, you know, he didn't actually even say anything about it. He just said, this is interesting. I'm curious about this. And people got upset about curiosity.
Marie:Opinions. Yeah.
Ben:And, like, anytime somebody's getting mad about somebody else being curious, it's it's a bit confusing. Like, you know, like, they're they're not advocating anything. He's just being he's just asking questions. So I thought that was really notable. And especially, like, you know, the way that he showed up and somebody kind of said, aren't you worried about what this is gonna do for your business?
Ben:And he was like, no. I'm I'm a curious person, and I'm gonna write about this if I want to. I thought that was like and I I remember a bunch of people going, okay, that gets a follow because he was saying basically, like, I'm willing to risk it all to explore what I'm curious about. And then, like, that to me is like, fuck yeah. I want in that.
Ben:Like, you know, I I wanna support that. I don't even, you know, really care what he's talking about. Like, just somebody that's willing to to risk risk it all for curiosity. Fascinating.
Corey:Well, the and the reality is, like, again, for for me, the people who have a problem with it were never really a supporter. They weren't in your corner. Right? Because, like, people who are in your corner are going to support you. They're not gonna try to criticize you or tear you down.
Corey:So you allowing these people to dictate how you live your life is a super common thing, but also why so many people live, like, die full of regrets. Because, like, fuck, I wish I would have done x y or z, but I let fear stand in my way. But I let the opinion opinions of others hold me back. Right? And it's just, like, again, momentum more.
Corey:Like, remember death, remember you will die. Like, using mortality as a motivator to live full. Like, what the fuck do you wanna do with your life? Is is 3 people in the comments, is that worth you living with regret and not being your most authentic self and not doing the shit you know you want to be doing? For some people, the answer is yes.
Corey:These 3 strangers, their opinion is is powerful enough for me to not be true to myself. Cool. That's your life. Right?
Marie:This might be a good segue to maybe talk a bit about your your program, the alchemy of fear.
Corey:Sure. So the alchemy of fear, basically, we we talk about, like, the 4 horsemen of fear. And the the issue with fear and and, like, the the self help person development kind of space is the way most of us have been taught to deal with fear is fight it, ignore it, or avoid it. Right? Face your fears, conquer it.
Corey:Just do it. Run, you know, whatever.
Marie:Like Aggressive language.
Corey:Yeah. Yeah. Or just ignore it. Like, oh, it doesn't exist. Just do it anyway.
Corey:Right? Or, like, I'll just think happy thoughts and fear will over time go away. Straight up fucking walking. The alchemy of fear is basically it it asked the question, you know, what could you achieve if fear wasn't holding you back? And it helps you learn to basically embrace fear as a guide forward, learning to see it as an ally guiding you forward rather than an enemy trying to hold you back.
Corey:So the the way we do this basically is thinking about when does fear usually come up? Fear typically. And again, the four horsemen of fear, fear typically comes up when we are emotionally invested in the work that we're doing. Right? When I had a 9 to 5 job, it was okay.
Corey:I enjoyed it well enough, but I wasn't emotionally invested in in the outcomes that I was working for. I was salaried. If the building burned down, my paycheck still came. If I sucked, if I was great, didn't matter. I got paid the same.
Corey:Right? But once I became an entrepreneur and I had to, like, put myself, my ideas, my face out there, and I I had the freedom to talk about whatever I wanted, and I discovered what I truly wanted to really talk about. That wasn't all the sphere came up. All these insecurities, all these self doubts and things that hadn't really come up much before because I really cared about the outcomes. I cared about what I was actually doing to people, you know, the impact that I could have.
Corey:So the fact that fear tends to show up when we are emotionally invested in the work that we're doing means that we can learn to see fear as a sign we're on the right path. So then it's, you know, throughout 6 weeks, you're basically learning how do you identify when fear comes up, why it comes up, how does it manifest, and what does it actually trying to lead you to? How can you transform your relationship with it to see it as something good that is actually trying to to guide you toward the path that actually leads to the life you want rather than seeing it as, oh, well, fear came up. That means I shouldn't take that path. Oh, well, I'm afraid I'm gonna fail.
Corey:That means I shouldn't do that. I should only do the things that success is guaranteed, that it'll be easy, that I don't have any insecurity or self doubt. It's never gonna fucking happen. All the old shit hasn't worked for you. You've read the books.
Corey:You've taken the courses. You've hired a mindset coach or fucking therapist or some shit. Maybe you've even had 6, 7, 8 figures in in, you know, financial success. Maybe you've done all this other shit, yet you still feel like you're you're being held back or holding yourself back to some degree. It's probably related to fear.
Corey:1 of the 4 horsemen, rather than try to fight it, ignore it or avoid it like you've probably already done for years or decades. Why not try a different approach? Why not try to embrace it as a guide forward? That's the whole premise of the program.
Marie:Love that. And what's the format? Is it a group?
Corey:6 week 6 week life program. Currently, we meet once a week for 2 hours. So it's like and it is, low lecture. So my big thing is we focus on taking action over taking notes. So it's a lot of applied.
Corey:It's a lot of, like, processing questions, having group discussions, really figuring out how do I get the clarity and the insight for my specific situation? How do I apply these insights to my specific life rather than here's 15 mental models and take all these fucking notes. No. No. No.
Corey:I hate courses like that. I don't wanna teach a course like that. And I've taught multiple other courses over the years. But this one so we're currently in our 2nd cohort. And the first cohort, a a very common piece of feedback that people said was like, this is, like, legitimately life changing.
Corey:Like, this trans like, this completely changed my life and, like, how I approach my life and my business. So that was super, super cool to to hear. Yeah. And it's it's based on frameworks I've honed over the last few years. It's just now it's everything kind of put together in a live format.
Marie:Sounds awesome.
Corey:And you'll hear me cuss a lot. That may or may not be a selling point. I don't know.
Ben:Yeah, it's possible. Yeah. I imagine the difference between your coaching and your psychotherapy is slightly different language, depending, I guess, depending on your client too. Right? Like, you might have clients or customers that are more open to that or might enjoy that.
Corey:So so I I'd no longer practice therapy. Right? I only do coaching now. But when I did therapy, a lot of what I did was either working with people who were in recovery, and a lot of the patients actually thought I was a patient too because I fucked covering tattoos. And at the time, I had I would wear, like, leather jackets.
Corey:I had, like, hair down to my tits. Like, it was like I I looked like a biker.
Ben:Uh-huh.
Corey:And I I still had the beard and shit. And so people were like, oh, he doesn't look like this other motherfucker in, like, khakis and a fucking, you know, pole. Yeah. In a car again and shit. They're like, I'm a go to that guy.
Corey:Like, I literally had people before, like, they would start to walk into, like, my supervisor's office because they had an appointment with him. They were like, I don't wanna see you. I wanna see that guy. So so I I did a lot with, like, people in recovery. And then I also worked a good bit with, like, angry teenagers, especially, like, angry teenage boys.
Corey:So, like, basically, people who had an issue with authority were like my bread and butter. And I also am highly oppositional, so it worked out real well. And a lot of entrepreneurs are also oppositional because, like, they don't have been told what to do. They wanna be their own boss, and they make terrible employees half the time. So it was a, it was generally a lateral move as far as like personality and shit.
Marie:That's so awesome.
Ben:That's awesome.
Marie:Kindly relatable. Yeah.
Ben:You seem to, you seem like you really enjoy what you're doing.
Corey:Yeah. I do. And that's that's what I'm saying. Like, my core value is freedom. So, like, I really optimize my decisions or so every decision you make or every opportunity that comes your way has the potential to get you one step closer to or one step further away from a life aligned with your your values or your core value.
Corey:So for me, every time a new opportunity or an idea or whatever comes up, I ask that question of, like, does this get me one step closer to or further away from a life of freedom based on how I I define freedom? And, you know, one way I define freedom is the ability to, you know, generally work from home or or work remotely anyway. I like being able to basically live all day in pajamas and then gym gym clothes. Right? Like, I literally have work pajamas and leisure pajamas because I also do, like, classical conditioning shit on myself to, like, get into a flow state and shit.
Corey:I I literally, like, I will go downstairs on the days when I'll go to the gym. I will go downstairs and change into my leisure pajamas so that my brain is like, we are out of work mode. Like and, like, that's one that's one thing I often was like, fucking hate wearing khakis and polo because I had to sometimes for some of the jobs, and I refuse. Like, I burn my shit after I I quit working at things. So that is a big thing for me is, like, working with the people I love to work with, hanging out with people I love hanging out with, like, today.
Corey:Like, I I had a coffee before this so that I could, like, be more here because I trained earlier today, and I'm usually, like, dead after jujitsu.
Ben:Oh, right.
Corey:And and like I said, like, I the the people I work with for coaching, the one question is, like, would I work with this person for free? Because if the answer is no, I wouldn't work with him for free, then then it means I don't wanna work with him. It means it's it's going to be an energy drain for me. Right? So I really optimize around freedom and being able to control my time and work with people and do projects that give me so much energy.
Corey:So that's and that does sometimes mean leaving money on the table. Right? And you you have to get comfortable with that.
Ben:I'd like to wrap up by asking you about the alchemy of fear. Is that is that part of the program, like helping somebody identify that a key, you know, a key principle that they anchor their life around in that way? Is that is that how you structure the program?
Corey:So like I said, I've I've I have I've designed other courses over the years. Some are still up. It's like self paced courses and things now. I have done, like, other life programs. The acuity of fear is specifically around transforming your relationship with fear.
Corey:However, in the process of that and in the process of people I did of of learning, like, oh, when does fear come up? What do I actually want? What am I afraid to want? What am I afraid to admit that I actually want to do with my life or my business? They come to that conclusion like, oh, fuck.
Corey:This is what is the most meaningful, most authentic thing for me to do, which is why every time I get near it, fear pops up and then I run away from it, which is why I haven't made the progress or had the impact I know I'm capable of. It's because of this avoidance. I do have, like, another course that is all around, like, clarifying your core value and, like, setting goals to, like, cradle to, like, achieve a life related to that or aligned with that. But the alchemy of fear is specifically all about your relationship with fear.
Ben:Awesome. Yeah. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners and even our our students, might even be really excited to to double up on on that course. Certainly a thing that, yeah, we we restructured our course about a year or 2 ago just around the idea of, people showing up and feeling overwhelmed and and being scared to to take any step forwards and, we we get them to do this thing that we call a capacity planning, boot camp before before they even do the course now. So, I think, like, something like that.
Ben:Like, if they're actually genuinely stuck, in fear there, it might be something that, we might recommend to try something like this out before they even try to tackle systems and productivity and things like that. You often end up, I think, spinning your wheels in productivity systems because you're actually avoiding some other deeper, deeper foundational thing that needs to get addressed. The adaptive challenge versus the technical challenge prior to prior to that.
Corey:For sure. Yep. Because hiding behind the productivity is is comfortable. It's safe.
Marie:Oh, yeah. Yep. The the procrasti planning is a real it's a real thing for sure. What's the best place for people to check out your content? You mentioned Twitter and Blue Sky.
Marie:We're on Blue Sky, but, yeah,
Corey:working people. I am Corey Wilkes, PsyD everywhere. So my doctor is a PsyD, a doctor of clinical psychology. I am most active on Twitter and LinkedIn. I've been on Blue Sky, but corebookscide.com is where you can find all my stuff.
Corey:Subscribe to my newsletter. That's where I'm I put out the most, like, long form content. It isn't just, like, a 160 whatever characters. And that's where I do a lot around exploring the psychology of of success and, you know, exploring intersection of human flourishing, entrepreneurship, and creativity. So anywhere, Corey Wilkes ID, you will find me.
Marie:You'll find the goods. Yeah. Some great great YouTube content and yeah.
Corey:Also YouTube. Yes. Awesome. Awesome.
Marie:Thanks so much for taking the time. It's I just love getting into this. All the mindset, entrepreneurial, fear, all the stuff we can all relate to. Anybody who works for themselves can relate to, I think, any of these topics. So
Corey:This was great. I appreciate, you know, y'all have me on. We have all talked through text, but never in person
Ben:like that.
Corey:So it was great to actually see faces and voices, like, go
Marie:to bed. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.
Ben:Yeah. I appreciate you. Y'all take amazing.
Marie:Have a good one, Corey.
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