Grief & Pizza

[00:00:00] This is Grief and Pizza, a podcast exploring the highs and lows at the intersection of business and emotional well being. This week we're talking to Sarah Campbell, the writer behind Tiny Revolutions and the coach behind The Fire Inside.

[00:00:11] Sara Campbell, so awesome to be here with you today. I know that we have followed each other on the Twitter sphere. I think that's maybe how we know each other and through the foster community, right, which is something that you are a part of currently. So for anyone that doesn't know who you are and know about your work, I'd love to hear a little bit about, maybe how you think about your work, how you, refer to yourself.

[00:00:30] I know you've got this incredible coaching program and I want to dig into kind of. the nature metaphor. We're going to get into that, but I would just love to kind of hear you describe a little bit about the work that you do today. What's lighting you up right now? Yeah.

[00:00:42] Um, it's really, I'm really glad you're asking me at this point in time because there have been many points in time where it was not really clear.

[00:00:49] Um, but I feel like in the last couple of years, I've really arrived at my mission, which is just to help people develop a really strong relationship with themselves, um, and learn to hear and listen to [00:01:00] ourselves. And that kind of, um, plays out in pretty much every corner of my life at this point. Um, I am, like you mentioned, a coach where I have a coaching program for women that I'm working on, uh, getting off the ground.

[00:01:12] I'm a part of Foster, which is an online writing collective and community of --practice for, um, writing from a place of deep personal truth. Um, and I also am on the board of directors of the Angel City Zen Center. So I've been a practicing Zen Buddhist for about five years now. I'm really involved in that community, which is all about meditation and, you know, self inquiry and all that.

[00:01:36] Um, and then I write a newsletter called tiny revolutions, which is. A sometimes embarrassingly personal, uh, newsletter about just kind of all my ups and downs, um, that I started writing, I guess about, actually, it's almost six years now, which is crazy to me, but, um, that all of these things are kind of heart centered projects.

[00:01:55] Um, but after a career of many years in startups [00:02:00] and the corporate world and all of that stuff, so it's taken me quite a while. Um, but I finally do feel like, Oh, wow, there's a through line. So thank you

[00:02:08] for the question. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:11] Helping People Become Who They Are
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[00:02:11] One of the phrases I love on your website is you say that you help people become who they are.

[00:02:17] And I thought we could dig into this a little bit because I want to know kind of what that means to you and what it means for us to kind of get off track. Right? Like, what does it mean to stop or to start maybe becoming something different, and what does it mean to kind of come back to who we are meant to be?

[00:02:33] So I'd love to kind of hear your, how you arrived at that phrasing, because it's very relatable and understandable, but I'm sure there's a lot to unpack there.

[00:02:41] Yeah, um, you know, it's funny because I, I've used that, I've been using that for my newsletter descriptor for a while now, and I don't remember the point at which I was just like, here it is, you know, as writers, we tend to overthink all these things, but at some point I was like, okay, this is it.

[00:02:57] I probably got it from Zen practice at some [00:03:00] point. Um, But I think becoming who you are is we, at least I, at some point, you know, earlier in my life, I had this idea that I had to build myself into something. Um, and I think what's become clearer to me and kind of how I got on the path I am is that it's actually not so much that I have to build myself.

[00:03:19] It's that I have to remove all the layers of things that I am not. And just let what's there at the bedrock, um, just be, which is a really long and uncomfortable process. And, um, you know, one of the big parts of my journey that I didn't mention earlier is that since I was a kid, I had pretty, um, I had some really big episodes with depression, serious depression, um, and that I really had to work through.

[00:03:43] So I was kind of forced into this type of work, but. You know, the more time and time and time, time and time again, the more I find that I'm trying to perform or be something for someone else, I'm, I start to get completely off track for, for what I [00:04:00] want. Um, and so that for me is sort of the practice is like, you know, and it gets confusing because it's like, I like to help others.

[00:04:07] I like to serve. I've been in client service in one way or another for most of my career and I enjoy that. Um, but, uh. I have, I can't, you know, I can't lose sight of me or, um, everything starts to

[00:04:20] go to shit.

[00:04:21] What Drew you to Zen Buddhism?
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[00:04:21] Yeah. I'm curious if, if this is part of maybe why you were drawn to the Zen Buddhism and maybe That tension between the sort of entrepreneurial world where you're sort of feeling like I need to Position and present myself a certain way and then the Zen Buddhism I'm curious kind of what lessons have you drawn from both or what tensions exist between Lessons from this over here and lessons from this over here.

[00:04:43] Like how do you think about the relationship between those two?

[00:04:47] Yeah It's a great question. I think when I came to Zen, I had been practicing mindfulness in secular ways for a very long time. Um, and I recognize just as like a classic overthinker, [00:05:00] which I think probably most of us that are listening to this podcast are, you know, really good brains that do a lot for us, but also can really work as ties into knots.

[00:05:08] Um, just the whole, uh, philosophy of meditation, you know, like these are just thoughts that you don't have to it. Take them seriously. You don't have to do anything. Right. Um, was such a world changing concept for me. And then coming across a practice like Zen where you really kind of just have to do the meditation.

[00:05:27] You really kind of just have to do the sitting was what made it, you know, it's like in the practice, that concept came to life. And so what was such a massive relief about it was like. And Zen Medi Zen style of meditation is you sit on a cushion, you stare at the wall and you keep your eyes open. You don't even close 'em.

[00:05:44] So it's really just like the practice is just a radical acceptance of like whatever is right here, which is like, sounds outside, I'm uncomfortable, you know, whatever it is. Um, and there was such a relief in that because it was like, I don't have to perform. I [00:06:00] don't even have to be turned around looking at anyone right now.

[00:06:03] This is just me. Um, just being, um, which for what I think of, you know, for myself, I think my classic trier, that's the entrepreneur in me. It's like, I want to do stuff I've been flinging myself into doing all kinds of stuff since I was young. Um. It took a long time for me to accept that that was just part of my being, but it didn't mean that I had to make myself into someone else to do it.

[00:06:29] It was like, try and just uncover what's true for me and go after that, as opposed to like, Oh, I need to become the vice president of something because it'll impress. Which is what I did for a long time. It was like climb ladder to impress others. And then the radical shift in my life was like, No, no, no, we're not trying to make We're not trying to impress others.

[00:06:49] We're trying to impress ourselves here. Um, or at least get clearer about what we're here to do.

[00:06:56] The Specificity of Ambitions and the Doing
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[00:06:56] I took a note here about one of your recent tiny revolutions, um, [00:07:00] broadcasts that you said, I'm going to kind of paraphrase it. The specificity of other people's ambitions often confuse me. And then you kind of talk about like this idea of like, how do people.

[00:07:11] Set their sights on this thing and they're like, that's the thing I'm becoming and then you kind of ended it like how could you know that you wanted to be a doctor if you don't actually know what caring for a patient is what's involved in the in the experiential part of becoming that thing and you finish it by saying the desire came in the doing and the people I encountered in the process and I think that's really beautiful.

[00:07:33] So like, you know, I think Yeah, we struggle a lot with this, this having this very specific outcome in mind. And, but there's like all this interesting stuff in the, in the process that we're ignoring. Like, um, another entrepreneur friend of ours, Thomas Frank, talks about this a lot where he's like, okay, so you want, you want to be a big YouTube creator.

[00:07:53] You want to have this audience and so on and so forth. Here's what, here's what a day to day life in that creator looks like. Do you want to do [00:08:00] all those things? No, you don't want to do those things, you know, um, it's so how is that? How has that shaped you over the years because it feels like you've got like all these different feelers and they're all kind of like they all come from the same place, but Like being in discomfort all the time and not having a clear goal, but being like feeling centered in that in that Progress it it kind of shows in your work really, obviously, and from my perspective, at least, um, how's that?

[00:08:28] How are you in that journey right now? Hmm.

[00:08:31] Uh, well, think about, thank you. First of all, thank you. That's a really nice compliment. Um, and you know, I have to say that I think that, um, a lot of just how I've arrived at where I am is that I just. Tried so many things. And because I have been, you know, I'm like such a, I was like a little accomplisher, you know, it was like, I got the straight A's and I was on the varsity team or, you know, whatever.

[00:08:55] And I did all the things that you're supposed to do. Um, and had so [00:09:00] many experiences where I was like, okay, I did that, but like. No, you know, or like just feel, I remember having this really, I worked for, um, when I lived in New York, you know, many years ago, I worked for Sony corporation and I did this huge event, um, at the museum of modern art, which was like, I was kind of like a project manager for an event, not a huge deal, but you know, for me at the time I was 25 or 26 or something like that.

[00:09:23] And I remember walking out of there and it had gone perfectly and like everything had gone to plan. It was such a big deal. And I was like. Huh. And I was like, wait a minute, okay, this is not, like, I should feel king of the world, queen of the world right now. Um, which I guess in some ways I did, but it was like, I think after having a lot of those types of experiences, I started to question.

[00:09:44] It's like, well, let me really pry into this. Like, let's say I run the marathon. Um, how long is that gonna You know, how long is the feeling of peak accomplishing going to last? And it, which doesn't mean that you don't get it, but it's more, I just started to pry into those things. And I think, um, [00:10:00] where I am now is that I feel somewhat unkillable because I'm trying now, um, to just do things because they're in some ways just like emerging from what.

[00:10:13] You know, these practices that I do to kind of stay close to myself, um, which doesn't always mean that they're like stuff. I enjoy a lot of times. They're really not stuff. I enjoy, but just kind of have to do. Um, but I think I'm only able to keep all these different plates spinning because I'm not so attached anymore to them really being successful.

[00:10:35] Yeah,

[00:10:36] do you work with a lot of women as well who are maybe in that sort of achiever mentality and it's like, if I just hit that next milestone, then I'll feel satisfied if I just hit and we keep moving those goalposts. So I'm curious, do you attract people that are kind of like you? Have maybe gone through that similar journey where you're like, wait a second.

[00:10:54] How do I work more and get away from this achievement

[00:10:58] mentality? Yeah, I, [00:11:00] well, I'm trying to, and I think that is kind of my vibe. Um, you know, a lot of the, most of the coaching clients I've had to date are just people that read my newsletter. And I'll mention that I coach every once in a while and get some people that will reach out.

[00:11:11] Um, And sometimes it is like what you typically find with coaching, um, is that there's an event or there's something that sort of precipitates why someone would want to make this leap. You know, like there's, um, you know, they get laid off from a job or they realize they need to make a career change or there's a big breakup or, you know, somebody dies, whatever.

[00:11:32] Um, and I think that definitely is a point at which you're like, What is this all there is like there's got to be more and so there is that period but point but I think also I There was at one point I was using in the newsletter I still will say this even though it's somewhat offensive at this point is I always thought that I was for high functioning crazy people where it was like people that you know, there's a certain level of like Just where I, from where I sit and kind [00:12:00] of where a lot of people that I sit, that I end up working with are people that are highly capable and competent individuals.

[00:12:06] And then they just reach this point at which they're like, okay, I've realized that I have a lot of power and I, and I am able, I have a lot of agency. I'm able to make things happen. And so how do I use my powers for, um, for good, but like also for just like more depth, more meaning, um, and, uh, you know, just like a richer life for myself.

[00:12:27] Formalizing the Coaching Practice
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[00:12:27] What prompted you to formalize the coaching practice? You kind of mentioned that you know, you're coming across these clients as you know, hey, I sometimes coach This is cool Like if you want to like reach out but that is that is that part of that desire to go deeper for yourself there and That in formalizing it and saying like yeah, this is actually this is actually me and and this is more more a part of my practice Now like what what was the what was that journey like?

[00:12:54] well, this is where we start to go deeper into the conversation and grief and pizza might come up. But, [00:13:00] um, I think that, you know, I had a big event in my life last year where my mom passed and, um, a lot of, you know, a lot of the way that I think about my life is, um, especially the, you know, my younger years, I felt like it was sort of a reaction to my mom's life.

[00:13:13] So my mom, you know, Um, had nine kids. I'm from like this big Irish Catholic family. Um, she never, you know, she worked as a teacher when she was young and then she spent most of her life was raising kids, you know, and grandkids. And she loved that. Um, but it came at a big cost because she didn't do a lot of the work to get to know herself and put herself first and take care of herself.

[00:13:36] And so that has ended up being a lot of the work that I've learned that I've had to do to kind of thrive in this. Insane chaos, right. Is really learn to, um, take care of myself and, and, um, look out for me. Um, and so when she passed, and I had a lot of conversations with her about this, um, but when she passed, it became more of a calling where [00:14:00] I was like, you know, there's a lot of women out there who I think, um, I can help.

[00:14:04] And you know, I understand. I've walked this path before. I mean, I think you'll see. You know, you see a lot among people in sort of healing professions, teaching professions is that we create the medicine that we need the most for ourselves. And so that, that very much feels like what the fire inside is.

[00:14:21] Um, and what I'm working on. And, you know, it's like, you know, I had a really hard time in my late twenties, early thirties. And I, and I think about that person and it's like, what would I help them with? Um, which is not to say that it's, Not, you know, it's not just for people at that age. It's for any age That's just kind of the the me and that time is like my ideal customer in some

[00:14:42] ways It's like the if you want to learn something teach, right?

[00:14:48] Totally. Yeah, and that's the other component Thank you for saying that is because like I have to do this work like this never ends So a lot of this is just like hey guys, I'm gonna be over attending my fire Do you want to come [00:15:00] do it with me and I'll teach you what I know kind of, that's, that's like the, you know, I very much try to think of it as like just being hand in hand with people that are also high functioning, crazy people and maybe need some help, um, getting out of their own way.

[00:15:14] Yeah,

[00:15:15] you even said that recently.

[00:15:16] The Bodhisattva Vow
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[00:15:16] I have another note here about, you said something about you know, your work is never, never finished. You're always doing the work. And, um, you related it to the, the bodhisattva vow. Do you think you could like define that for our guests and kind of what that means to you?

[00:15:31] And like, how has, how has that like incorporating that the Buddhist, uh, mindset, uh, like, like kind of evolved the work that you're doing and the way that you see your responsibility as a coach.

[00:15:45] Yeah, I mean, I think there's a, there are actually a lot of parallels, I think, between Buddhism and, um, coaching as a discipline.

[00:15:51] Um, Joe Hudson, who was on your, you know, on your podcast, who I really loved that interview. Um, he was great and I don't know that he spoke directly [00:16:00] to it, but it was like a lot of stuff where I was like, uh huh, uh huh. Um, but you know, both of those things, coaching and Buddhas are, you know, and Zen are, They maintain that inherently you are perfect as you are.

[00:16:13] And so, um, it is, you know, we all have Buddha nature and it is, um, on us to treat ourselves and everyone else with respect and care and thoughtfulness, mindfulness, all these things. Um, the Bodhisattva vow is a vow that says beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them.

[00:16:35] Um, Buddha's way is. It's unsurpassable. I vow to surpass, or, you know, it's, I mean, I just garbled that last one. It's like Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I, I vowed to become it, something like that. But in right in there in the vows are, you know, Bodhisattva is a, is a being. And Jesus was thought to be a Bodhisattva, for example, um, who is, um, who has vowed to help others before they go [00:17:00] across to wherever, you know, whatever that is.

[00:17:02] But, um. Part, you see it right there in the vow that, um, the work is never over. Like it's like, and it's never, you know, it's like you never get to the top of the mountain, but it doesn't mean you don't climb the mountain. It just means that there's like a clarity, um, that this never. This is just, this is just how it is, right?

[00:17:22]

[00:17:22] Living Out Loud and Sharing Vulnerability
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[00:17:22] One of the things I really appreciate and I thought might be kind of fun to talk about is there's an aspect of sort of living out loud, right? Like, you've been publishing on the internet and publishing this thinking, struggles, whatever it is that you're doing. Um, and as, you know, someone else that creates content, you know, Ben and I trying to live out loud, put our content out there.

[00:17:40] It's a super vulnerable thing to put your, your thinking, your experience, your struggles out there, um, and just the fact that, you know, you are in the foster community, that's a big part of the work that you're doing there. I'd just love to know a little bit more about how you navigate that, uh, sharing, you know, do you ever feel like you need to censor what you're [00:18:00] thinking because you're, you're still going through it, or maybe that's sharing too much information.

[00:18:04] Do you ever, you know, struggle to navigate that line of sharing too much, or do you kind of put it all out there? How do you think about how you show up on the internet?

[00:18:13] Yeah, it's a good question. I would say that as much as I share, there's a lot I hold back and that I don't share. So there's a lot of discernment in what I'm willing to put out there.

[00:18:23] Um, I think a lot of my ability to share freely is due to having been doing work, having done work in community for a very long time. So before I started writing Tidying Revolutions, um, I had been Taking writing workshops for like 15, 20 years. Um, and when you write and read a lot, especially if you're working with writers who write creative nonfiction, which was my, you know, craft area, um, there are no surprises.

[00:18:53] You know, it's like humans are humans. Like you could say the most fucked up thing you could possibly think of and people will be like, Oh, totally. [00:19:00] You know, it's like, yeah, or either they're not only nodding along or they're thinking of a friend or whatever. And so, you know, there's some level of just like putting the reps in and realize that there's kind of not that much you can say to shock people at this point, which means, you know, you're not so different from everyone else.

[00:19:16] Um, but then also, um. Doing the work in community with, uh, well, foster clearly doing, but also Zen practice, um, you can start to, I don't know, it's like you, you develop the muscle where it's like, yeah, I can say something scary, but, um. It's usually not as scary once other people hear it because they'll be like, Oh my God, thank you for saying it, you know, and that was my earliest, uh, the earliest impetus for starting tiny revolutions was actually because I had a business fail, um, and I'd gone into this deep depression after it, cause I'd walked away from it and was just like crushed and needed somewhere to put my energy.

[00:19:56] And so I started writing about my experiences with depression. I didn't write about the [00:20:00] startup. I didn't write about anything. I just wrote about what it felt like to be depressed. Cause I was like, why do people. Why did not people more, or why did more people not talk about it? Like, this is clearly something that affects people.

[00:20:10] It was right after Anthony Bourdain and, um, Kate Spade had killed themselves. And it was like, these are like some of the most incredible, creative, wonderful minds. Um, and it's right there, you know? So I started writing really from a raw place and even just those earlier issues, which are really not, you can go back and read them.

[00:20:28] They're not like masterworks of art, but they were saying something true. Um, and I think they really hit. It's a lot of people that are reading it because it just has been and continues to be pretty rare to hear people really speak honestly about what they're going through. Um, you know, on that

[00:20:47] front.

[00:20:48] Yeah.

[00:20:49] Crash and Burn Moments
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[00:20:49] I know you've mentioned having some sort of crash crash and burns, you know, over the years and. How you've really developed a resiliency in yourself and in your business. Are you willing to share [00:21:00] maybe a little bit more about like some of those little breadcrumbs of those crash and burn moments or kind of like what you've learned from those moments that you've been able to take forward into your coaching practice today?

[00:21:11] Yeah. I mean, I think the, the one that comes to mind is funny. Um, so I had a startup that I co founded with, um, two friends of mine. One was, um, One was a woman that I actually had worked for, um, years ago in public relations. I worked at Bank of America, um, and she'd been my manager there and we'd become friends, really smart, great person.

[00:21:32] Um, and then another friend of mine who was a software developer. And so he was kind of our CTO and we built this, um, We built basically a beta version of an app that was like, uh, beauty product recommendations between friends. So the idea was like, you know, this was like six or seven years ago. I actually still think someone, people are doing this in different ways.

[00:21:52] But, um, the idea was, you know, you can't really trust online reviews, but who can you trust? Like people you actually know. So it was like, why don't [00:22:00] we find a place for that? And it was really fun. It was a great, you know, I'd worked at many startups for a lot of years, but it was my first experience trying to build one of my own and putting together the product and all that stuff.

[00:22:11] Um, so fun. It was super unique. Yeah. So fun. Um, and basically like without getting into the details, uh, my co founder who had been my old boss and my other co founder and I had, um, Just very deep differences of opinion about how to take it forward. So we got to a point where we had put together this beta and had like a little community and, you know, had some pretty good metrics where we, you know, put together a deck.

[00:22:38] We're gonna raise a seed round and Me and the CTO were just like so at odds that it was like if we do raise money now We're tied to this person who has a extremely difficult different way of thinking about it um And it was just like, I think I had enough clarity to know at that point. Um, cause I'd [00:23:00] been, you know, I'd been through a few different startup crashing and burning type experiences that I was like, this is as far as I've ever gotten with something like this, but it would only get harder and more gnarly once that kind of money was involved.

[00:23:13] Right. And so I made this really difficult decision to walk away and. Ended my relationship totally with, with, um, my co founder, still haven't talked to her. Um, and I'm sure at some point we will, she's a great person. Um, but yeah, it was like, I think what I learned from that was. Anything that I'm going to do has to be more emergent from, like, what I genuinely care about.

[00:23:37] Which, while I thought that was a great, um, product idea, do I, at the end of the day, actually care that much about beauty product recommendations between friends? Maybe not. But you're willing to go all in. Yeah. Yeah, it was like, is this the hill I'm prepared to die on? Um, and, you know, I'm sure you could, like, extrapolate.

[00:23:56] Put any number of different meanings behind that. But when I really, [00:24:00] when I really kind of backed up and like came back to me, it was like, this isn't it, you know, this isn't the one. And so that I think was helpful in that, you know, I got further than I had ever gotten in terms of building a product and a community.

[00:24:16] Um, But I also got, you know, there was so much I learned about, I was, you know, you, it's like, you look back on an experience like that and you're like, wow, I was wildly naive about a lot of things.

[00:24:27] That's where all the juicy learning comes from,

[00:24:29] right? Totally. Totally. But yeah, just coming out of that one, it was a real clarifying experience.

[00:24:35] And I was like, yes, love to build, love to create, no, um, you know, very clarifying experience in terms of like, what really would I, You know, what's my ride or die mission, which I think I'm much closer to now.

[00:24:53] Yeah, I think I've been in a, in a similar kind of position for quite a few years because we, prior to founding [00:25:00] Notion Mastery, we had a SAS platform for online courses and we ran that for a long time and, and we didn't really have like, I didn't really have any interest in like building an online course at that point.

[00:25:11] So it was like, it was more like solving a problem that I wasn't super invested in. And then like we decided to sunset the platform just because it was like, it was like more of a content. creation thing than an actual application and then now that we have notion mastery I often get like these like pangs of like I hear people asking for these things and I'm and I think about like, oh, I could solve that problem with my old software that I build or make this new thing with it, but then I think I always get sniped on those like on the problem solving versus like, what does it actually mean for me to solve that problem?

[00:25:45] Um, and like, so I, I sometimes get stuck in this decision making process of like, should I start working on this thing? Cause I, like, is it really something that it's like, that I feel

[00:25:53] like I could, yeah, um,

[00:25:56] yeah. Marie [00:26:00] even made, Marie even made that, you made that amazing Notion template for, uh, for beauty, like, for like, The beauty products, yeah.

[00:26:07] Yeah, like comparing like the, the stuff that's in the products and being able to like, almost like a self recommendation engine and now it's like, there's so many of these interesting no code tools you could develop something like that for yourself. Uh, but yeah, it's an interesting journey.

[00:26:22] Yeah, I love that.

[00:26:23] Helping Others and Becoming Who You Are
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[00:26:23] Um, well, I think that's an interesting thing that you bring up about Marie, you making this template, you know, um, because I think where I'm trying to get to with the becoming who you are is that you get back to a place where it's like, you only do these things because you kind of have to do them. So it's like if something emerges from you because you're like, Oh, totally, we need this.

[00:26:42] And I'm just going to whip it, you know, that's one thing. But it's like, if you get yourself into the situation where you're like, I could, you Do this, right? Like I totally could build this. I have done it before. I fall into this trap all the time, by the way, because I have done so many things to pay the bills over the years, especially as a writer.

[00:26:57] That's like one of my core companies competencies. [00:27:00] So people will come and be like, Hey, we need a writer on such and such. And I'll be like, And then I'll be like, wait, but it is, it does come back to that, like, and I think this is a, is a function of getting older too, is that you're like, realistically, my energy is somewhat limited.

[00:27:16] So if I do that, then I'm draining, then I'm taking a huge pull of energy from this that would probably be better be diverted to something that's way more close to the center. Um, and it's obviously not perfect. And I take little, you know, I'll do little odd jobs here and there if they think, if they seem fun or like not too taxing, but I think that whole, I think just what coming back to that, like I can, but should I, is where the.

[00:27:44] is where that, like, getting really close to yourself thing really makes such a difference.

[00:27:49] I was laughing about this the other day because I, I wrote this Ruby script that automatically takes all of our Stripe transactions, breaks them down into every payment, figures out where that person was, and then auto [00:28:00] explains it in our bookkeeping software, attaches invoices, and my, and after I did it, I was like so amped up and like, oh, I solved this interesting programming problem because that's the kind of stuff that gets me really excited.

[00:28:11] And then I was like, oh, this could definitely be a SASS because this is a hard problem and people would really like this and then I immediately was like, uh, okay, bookkeeping is the thing that I hate the most doing in life. So that's not a place. Taxes and compliance. Let's do more of that. So it's like, absolutely.

[00:28:27] Absolutely, this is a great thing that for me to solve and I could do it and I know it really well now, but I'm like, but is that where I want to live? I want to live in the taxation and the compliance zone? Like, oof, no. So it was an easy, an easy no for me. And I think, you know, as you develop that, you know, discovering who you are, it makes it easier to make those decisions, even though they at, you know, from an outsider's perspective might seem like, well, that's, That's a really awesome money making opportunity.

[00:28:54] And it's nice to be able to say, yeah, don't care. Don't want to do that. Totally,

[00:28:59] totally. It's like [00:29:00] someone should do that, you know, just not me.

[00:29:02] Managing Energy
---

[00:29:02] know you mentioned energy. And so I just would love to chat about this a little bit too, because, um, as someone with ADHD, I have to be very, very mindful of how much energy things take.

[00:29:13] And so I'm curious, you know, Like you said, as we get older, we have to be more mindful about this. There's only so much time we have in the day and energy that we have in the day. Not every task is equal. And so I'm curious if you have your own kind of internal decision making, you know, framework for how you think about, you know, I only have this many hours where I'm on per day, or, you know, I'm kind of curious, maybe getting into the weeds a bit of how you think about your time or maybe structure your days and how that looks when you think about what you take on or don't take on.

[00:29:41] Yeah, no, it's a really good question. I, I wish I had like a clear system that I could point to and I've actually seen your, um, your course or, you know, some of the guidance that you've, you've put out and I'm like, okay, I should totally do that. I don't have ADHD that I'm aware of, but do I think I would benefit?

[00:29:57] Yes. Um, my sister [00:30:00] has really bad age, ADHD, so maybe, you know, maybe there's a touch. I don't know how it works, but, um, I really kind of at this point just operate from a more intuitive sense. Like I'm pretty, um, I am very committed to the things that I sort of think of as keeping me sane, which are exercise, um, you know, mindfulness type practices, whether it's, you know, Zen meditation or other stuff.

[00:30:23] Um. And having some kind of quiet, uh, at some point in the day. And so I kind of build my life around making sure I do those things because I think my quality of life sort of precipitously declines if I do not. Um, but when I think about, you know, there's also day to day, it's a little different, but one thing that is major for me is the menstrual cycle.

[00:30:44] Like there is a week of the month where strategic thought is not happening in my brain. My colleagues at Foster know, um, because I'm just like. Sorry, you know, like, I know, yeah, like, I don't know what to tell you. It's just [00:31:00] not, you know, there. And I feel extremely grateful that I can actually openly talk about, like, to talk about things that are shocking in life.

[00:31:06] I never thought I would ever talk about this stuff publicly, but when it comes to energy, there's a really wonderful writer, um, thinker named Kate Northrup. And I can't remember the name of her book off the, off the top of my head, but she's got a whole thing on, um, cycle, you know, energetic. work according to your cycle.

[00:31:22] And like, she got this soundbite, I think that's like men operate on like a 24 hour cycle and women are on the monthly cycle. And that, that, that has been super helpful. Um, I can't always map my workload to it, but at least awareness, you know, of where I am, like, is a lot of the way for like me having patience with myself, grace with myself when I'm not.

[00:31:47] You know, it's like, there are just times where I'm not tip top. And so I have to, and so I used to beat myself up for that terribly, especially in the agency world where deadlines would happen. And I would just be like, it would be like beating myself against the wall, but I [00:32:00] don't, I don't do that. I try to roll with it, roll with it a little bit more.

[00:32:04] These days, how did

[00:32:05] you, how did you get to that point? Cause I know I think it's, it's an easy thing to be like, Oh, stop beating yourself up, have more self compassion, but obviously that's been a practice. So, you know, how did you get to the point where you were able to kind of let go of some of these things and sort of make peace with who you are, how you are?

[00:32:21] Yeah. Is that the Zen Buddhism? Yeah,

[00:32:24] I mean, Zen practice has definitely happened, helped with this a lot. Um, I think it's also kind of what I was talking about before, about, um, just knowing that you're not the only one that's like this, you know? It's like, the less we feel like I'm uniquely fucked up than the easier it is to forgive ourselves, you know, it's like everyone struggles with screen time, you know, like you're not a piece of shit because you spent five hours on your phone yesterday.

[00:32:50] You're just a person, right? So there's a little bit of like, they're designed for you to spend as much, you know, it's like much time as possible, but I think it's [00:33:00] just, um, I do think meditation has been a big one and just like, you just listen to the, you just watch the nonstop stream of like. Bullshit, you know, that, um, that, you know, and just kind of get tired of it.

[00:33:12] But I think also what's helped me is just hearing, um, my family is super self critical, my family of origin. So I've seen a lot of that in my siblings and you know, it's like you listen to people talk badly about themselves and you're like, don't say that, like you're the best, like, you know, don't, and, and so it's made me more aware of my self talk as well, where it's just like, Oh, you probably wouldn't want to hear me.

[00:33:36] Um, you know, say something unkind. It's like, imagine if I was like, I was just having this conversation where I'm like, imagining me as an eight year old, like, would you say that to her? Like, come on, you know, let's try to be nice. It's hard

[00:33:50] though. We would talk to ourselves compared to, we would never talk to a friend that way or that friend would probably never want to hang out with us.

[00:33:55] And so why do we feel like it's okay to use that kind of language every day with [00:34:00] ourselves?

[00:34:00] Yeah. But it, I think that's definitely a practice. And I would say a big prac, a big, um, person whose work has helped me a lot is, um, Dr. Kristen Neff, who you might be familiar with. She is, she's got a, um, I think, I mean, she's a professor, I wanna say at UT Austin maybe, or somewhere.

[00:34:17] Sounds tough, but she's got a whole library of self compassion exercises and guided meditations and stuff on her website. So, um, I've done like, you know, definitely lots of like SOS, you know, five minute self compassion break meditations have been super

[00:34:34] helpful for me.

[00:34:36] Getting Started with Meditation
---

[00:34:36] Amazing. And for anyone that's maybe hasn't dipped their toe in the water of meditation or anything like that, like what, what are maybe some of the first exercises or places that you might recommend folks to just even begin to think a little bit more about that or to, to have that quietness or is there something?

[00:34:54] like beginner 101 that you could recommend? Yeah.

[00:34:58] Wow. What would I say? [00:35:00] I think, um, well, there's so many apps now, which are great. I mean, it's like the deeper you get into meditation, the more you're kind of like apps, they're just trying to steal your attention like anything else. But they're fantastic for kind of educating you about what a mad mindfulness practice even is.

[00:35:15] So, um, you know, I haven't tried many of them just cause I've done it more in. In the world, but headspace is great. Calm is great waking up. I've heard a lot of great things about, um, because there's kind of like, it's like the, the one on one concept is that you are not your thoughts, right? If you can detach your thoughts from who you are, you can just sort of watch them, right.

[00:35:37] And listen to what. Is going on and just try to be, you know, it's a, it's a practice of becoming more, um, present and just a witness of our thoughts as opposed to like a feeling attacked by them. And that was certainly my story because I had such a harsh, you know, internal. So I would say like any one of those apps is probably a good idea.

[00:35:59] [00:36:00] Also, I, the way I learned to meditate was just going to a local Shambhala center. This was, you know, I think 2009. Um, and just doing like an intro to meditation. Um, you could do that. There's lots of secular places that do it now, but, um. You know, a Zen center is a Zen's kind of jumping right in the deep end, which if you feel called, like go for it.

[00:36:21] Um, I, what I do find more often is that people will come to it after, you know, as a deepening of practice. But, um, tons, like I'm trying to think of, um, I'm trying to draw, I'm kind of drawing a blank, but like anywhere that just offers meditation instruction, there's tons of different traditions out there.

[00:36:38] And so like, I think it's more, it's, it's like. Everyone's so looking for like the perfect thing or the right thing, but really it's just like, go to the place down the street, you know, like go to what's available, just start somewhere. And that comes back to what you were talking about Ben earlier, which is just like you find things in the doing.

[00:36:58] And I think that's so [00:37:00] much like we have so many choices available to us and so much, you know, um, So much available to us that we get overwhelmed and then we do nothing, but it's really often just like, you know, if you're thinking about like the midwet meme, be the guy on the left or the right, you know, and just like, go pick a, pick something and know that whatever happens from there, it happens.

[00:37:20] Um, you don't have to have a huge plan. You can just do some stuff. You know, that's, that's, I think, the best

[00:37:28] to start. I think I really like that from your, your last, um, Tiny Revolutions. You had a quote that was like, My actions are my only belongings. That feels like it kind of resonates with what you're saying there.

[00:37:43] Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I, I, I feel like, um, I don't know, it's kind of interesting cause it's sure it's easy for me to say that right now. Cause I'm in this period of time where I'm like, I'm at my dad's house. I'm a, I'm a digital nomad. Um, while I figure out, I just left LA after like, [00:38:00] you know, 18 years. And so I'm kind of figuring out what's next.

[00:38:02] Yeah. Big life shift. Yeah. And that was also partially inspired by my mom's passing. It was just sort of like, it's time to. You know, venture further out here, but, um, I don't really have a lot of belongings right now. The belongings I do have are in storage, um, and it's kind of, I mean, this is like a very literal way of interpreting that teaching, but it's just like, you'd be surprised at how little you actually need in order to.

[00:38:29] Um, do your thing, especially if you're like us and you have like an email job, you know, and it's like, then it just becomes like, what are the, you know, what is, what is what you're doing? Like, what are you doing every day? Like, that's really what your life is.

[00:38:42] Setting Intentions and Goals
---

[00:38:42] So what's next for you?

[00:38:44] Yeah. What are some of the experiments that you're, uh, and if I might ask as well, yeah, you may be not so goal driven or I'm, I'm don't know if you actually have a, Oh, here's a goal that I want to do this year.

[00:38:55] Do you ever set up formal experiments for yourself? Or are you just sort of open to whatever [00:39:00] emerges or are you like Q1, I'm going to. Try this out as an experiment. I'm curious how you think about that.

[00:39:06] Yeah. Thanks for the question. Um, I There was a while where I was like, no more goals, you know, and that's also a very, uh, Zen thing, right?

[00:39:15] Like goal, we talk about goal as practice, but I actually do think it's helpful to have, um, intentions, you know, I think that's the more popular word we're using for goals at this point, but intentions. So I do have intentions. Like in my intentions is like, you know, get tiny revolutions off the, off the ground.

[00:39:31] Um, the first experiment is just do some workshops to introduce what the program entails and, you know, um, see who, Kind of comes in the door and is curious, right? Like my intention is to launch a group coaching program, um, or to launch my first sort of like cohort, um, in February, probably mid might be more March time frame at this point.

[00:39:52] But, um, that I think will happen. I'm also exploring, um. Doing something IRL and [00:40:00] opening an in person practice space and that could be you know The MVP of that might be like I host a class You know, I host a class at a yoga studio or a meditation studio or something like that and start there But those are kind of the first things like the other thing is that And you guys, I feel like you guys will, will, uh, might have some good stories.

[00:40:21] So I'm curious, but right now I've got like multiple brands happening. So it's like, I have tiny revolutions and then I'm like, well, now I have the fire inside. And then it's like, but I'm Sara Campbell, you know, and that's my website. Yeah. And it's like, where do I, so part of my intention is like. At least kind of put some rails around where I spend my time and how I, you know, where I publish, because I also, I also am doing quite a lot with Foster, which is another project I absolutely love.

[00:40:49] But, um, you know, Foster's its own thing because it's like that is a collective and I have like a whole team that I work with on that. Um, but then Fire Inside and Tiny Revolutions are just me [00:41:00] and Tiny Revolutions will always be me, but the Fire Inside will probably be a team. Um, you know, in the not so distant, distant future.

[00:41:08] So there's some, um, there's some organization and sort of like thought that I'm putting now into like what those, you know, what comes out in both of those places, um, or in all of those places, that is something I have to untangle in the coming. Months last year.

[00:41:27] I don't I don't even think we have I mean, I definitely don't think we have any like advice on that front Because our brands are often very confusing You know, we have my my personal site and Marie Marie pool and calm like that's actually the thing that drives a lot of interest is Marie's personal exploration exploration and her own brand is what drives a lot of interest to something like notion mastery and then So that's our product.

[00:41:55] And we also have Okidoki, which is Marie and I's business together. And the weird thing about [00:42:00] Okidoki is that it's, we just treat it almost like as an umbrella, um, around our two personal brands. In fact, when we, when we were only running Okidoki as a consulting agency, uh, we effectively ran two independent companies within that brand.

[00:42:16] Like I had my clients and Marie had her clients. And occasionally there would be a, A crossover between our clients that would demand that we build something together, and that was how eventually we were like, we should, you know, like, we should just start a company. It makes the, you know, all the revenue stuff coming into one source.

[00:42:33] We have one, one tax return and so on and so forth. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. But, Yeah, we never, we've never really fully resolved that. And so a lot of our questioning is like, where does this content belong? Is this Marie, is this something, you know, and generally we do, okay, it's notion related, it goes on notion mastery.

[00:42:53] If it's personal productivity or, or like, you know, personal development, it goes on Marie's site and I just write weird stuff that [00:43:00] doesn't really go anywhere a lot of times. Um, uh, so yeah, it's. It's a tricky, a tricky thing to, to resolve. I think

[00:43:08] sometimes there's this, like, is this a brand? Is this a product?

[00:43:13] Is this a team? Like there's lots of different ways of looking at a thing. And then sometimes we're thinking maybe too far. out that it prevents us from making a good decision now. So for example, with Notion Mastery, that was just a page on my personal website. That's like, Hey, I have a product. Here's a course, buy it here.

[00:43:29] And once it grew to a certain point where I was like, Ooh, this kind of needs its own like search engine traffic and its own brand. Maybe this needs to live on a different URL. So I think I can just relate to the difficulty sometimes where you're like, wait a second, is this just a product that lives under.

[00:43:44] My personal brand and I can hire a team and grow that later and then move that to its own thing. And so that can be a hard thing to navigate when you don't want to get too tripped up in the what's the five year, 10 year plan, you know, just get moving. Yeah, totally.

[00:43:59] [00:44:00] Yeah. No, thank you for saying all that.

[00:44:01] It's really interesting because, well, I'm like really thrilled to hear that you're just kind of like, it just kind of goes how it goes. And you're able to navigate that because that is one of those things where I am feeling like, Oh, God, I have to figure this out. But maybe I don't, I

[00:44:15] don't know,

[00:44:16] Embracing Emergence and Experimentation
---

[00:44:16] a lot of decisions are not as permanent, I think, as we think they are.

[00:44:19] It's like, you know what, when you're ready, you can go by, or go by that domain pointed to a different website when you're ready. Like, there's lots of things that, uh, They're often not permanent decisions. And so you can always change your mind later. Yes, there might be different challenges, marketing challenges that come along with that, but it's all figure out a bull for the most part.

[00:44:37] So get the LLC when you're ready to get the LLC, but for now that can be a page on your site. And so there's lots of different ways. I think you could approach it and none are wrong. They're just going to have different consequences or, you know. Yeah, but it's all she's

[00:44:52] like, yeah, you do something and then you do something else based on how that goes, right?

[00:44:57] Even like experimenting with with this podcast and [00:45:00] posting YouTube shorts, and then someone's like, oh you didn't at a title, so it just shows the date. I'm like, oh, well, I'll do that, you know, differently next time. And so I think sometimes just taking action, um, and being like, oh, okay, that's not quite what I was expecting.

[00:45:14] We can, we can shift gears. That's totally

[00:45:15] fine. Yeah, I'm super I'm very obsessed with that right now because I, even with the starting the podcast, like we recorded the first episode with Joe and then we sat on it, like we edited it down and we sat on it for like three weeks before we actually published it because we got stuck on this thing of like, well, should we have an introduction episode that like, introduces me and Marie and I, like You know, uh, how, but can we publish the episode and then if we wanted to add an intro episode later, can we go back and like re, like, order the episode so that it's first so it doesn't feel like weird?

[00:45:50] And then so you get stuck on these decisions and I, you know, and so Marie was like, let's record our intro episode and I was, I was very adamant, like, no, we're gonna ship this. What if we just shipped it and figured it out [00:46:00] later? We'll figure that out later and we're not going to worry about it and kind of like let it let it grow So I think often yeah, just get something out there and then and then it can evolve over time like most of those things I find are typically technical Technical questions like is this a sub page on my website or is it a sub domain or is it a full domain?

[00:46:22] Like that's a technical question. Just get it out there Even if it's in a notion document or something that has no discernible domain at least you can Directly give it to somebody. So, yeah.

[00:46:33] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:34] Bringing Ideas to Light Through Podcasting
---

[00:46:34] No, well I'm curious, how long have you guys been thinking about the podcast or how did that, I know you mentioned it was sort of something that emerged maybe from art of accomplishment, but, um, I was curious.

[00:46:45] When did the first

[00:46:45] Inklings? I think we created, we created a project to launch a podcast, uh, about two months before we went to Japan for a month. Uh, so this was probably in the summer of last year. [00:47:00] Um, and I think I had been on a few podcasts last year. Um, and I've, I always enjoy just talking to people, and then it's like, oh, now we have this cool piece of, of art that doesn't require a lot of, like, pre planning and pre thought, and, you know, I think I, I'm not as loquacious as, as you are, Sara, with the writing stuff, so, like, it, it's something, in a way, Um, and Barrett kind of highlighted this on, uh, uh, the last episode because I sent him a clip of one of the things that he said and I was like, I am obsessed with this, Barrett.

[00:47:32] It's such a good statement. And he said, he said something along the lines of, yeah, oh, wow, like, I actually said something that I hadn't really, hadn't crystallized for me yet, but now it became this thing that he's like, oh, that's, that's exactly it. So we often do a better job at kind of talking out our ideas than actually Implementing them and writing about them and so and I think it my desire to do the podcast came I Came on a [00:48:00] podcast called crazy wisdom and I started talking about the direction that Marie and I were taking our business And after I went back and listened to that podcast, I was like That doesn't even sound like me.

[00:48:10] It was so like, I was, I self inspired myself to want to move forward and it was such a pretty smart. Yeah, it was, it was such an unlocking. It's such an unlocking for me where you, you can, uh, you verbally process things in that way. And that was, and that, so then I was like, oh, like I want to. Have these conversations with people so that they can verbally process and and we can have these conversations and something new can evolve from that.

[00:48:34] And so that just got me really excited. And then when we got back from Japan, we kind of had that, you know, time warp of holiday seasons and we were like, all right, let's do this. Let's just. Let's just book somebody and, and Joe, we had been talking to Joe already and we just started his great decisions course this morning, which we're really excited about.

[00:48:54] Um, and he very graciously offered to come on and, and that was it. So here we are. [00:49:00]

[00:49:00] Nice. Yeah. It was like the star was like, Hey, I'm here. Okay. It's a sign.

[00:49:06] Yeah. And I'll just add to that. I think, um, you know, one of the things I love and appreciate is that Ben and I can have these two hour long morning conversations over coffee.

[00:49:15] And then I'm like, Oh man, like so much emerges from those conversations and notes and ideas and product ideas. I'm like, ah, like I wish we'd recorded that. So I was partly like, maybe we should actually record some of these sessions. Whether it's a solo episode or something or duo episode with the two of us.

[00:49:30] But there is so much benefit personally to that verbal processing that sometimes you don't even know how you feel about a thing till it's, it's out there. So there's that sort of casual coffee conversations. It's not just business. It's not just personal. It's all kind of intermixed. I'm like, what would it look like if we brought more of these conversations to the light and didn't just kind of have them at our kitchen table?

[00:49:51] Cause like you said, other people are probably thinking about this stuff too. So what does it look like to put your ideas out there and kind of see where there's resonance with other, other listeners? [00:50:00]

[00:50:00] Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's what's something so interesting about the podcast. Podcast is a medium, you know, um, is that we have, it's like that ability to be sort of fly on the wall.

[00:50:11] And I would, I definitely put my vote in the camp of you guys broadcasting some of those discussions because, um, I mean, there's just a lot there and it's like being in someone else's mind and their thought processes. So it's like one of the things that I love about writing is just being in the company of someone else's mind.

[00:50:28] But, you know, especially the work that you all are doing where there's a lot of creation and, um, you know, interesting internet. Things that nobody's really done before coming up, right? So like, that's super valuable.

[00:50:42] Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's a, just one of our many experiments this year. And, uh, you know, the word emergence came up.

[00:50:48] But for me, I think that's, that's my word of the year is like, how can I be more open to things just emerging in a natural way? Uh, collaborations that just sort of present themselves and I'm open to it. So this year [00:51:00] is going to be a lot more about experimentation and emergence and less about needing to know exactly what's going to happen each quarter.

[00:51:07] All of that.

[00:51:08] Oh, I love that. Um, Ben, do you have a word of the year?

[00:51:12] Yeah, my word of the year is expressive. Um, yeah, I've been, and the podcast really is part of that. I think, um, yeah, I think I've been same, same with Marie, very focused on outcomes and the things that Um, like I think I should be doing and getting kind of stuck in that mode of creating things that people are asking of me.

[00:51:35] Um, I'm, I'm sort of an obsessive problem solver. I get very sniped on when somebody's stuck on something. I'm like, I very quickly latch on, latch on to that. And, So it, it feels good to me to like help people get unblocked and move forwards. But I think in a sense over the years, like I've been kind of doing that to my own detriment.

[00:51:55] And, and so I'm thinking about like, how can I. How can I [00:52:00] solve my own problems and create in that, in that respect, um, instead of solving other people's problems directly? And then it's like, um, I think by sharing what I'm discovering about myself and unblocking myself and sharing those things, I hope to have a similar impact on people's lives, uh, through that work and discovering, you know, self discovery versus just Uh, solving immediate problems.

[00:52:24] So I think there's like a, a depth quotient that I'm seeking, um, outside of just the, the problem solving thing. Um, you know, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Always a balance.

[00:52:36] Yeah.

[00:52:37] Trojan Houses for Development
---

[00:52:37] Well, it's like, it's funny. Cause like, we talk a lot about this at foster. Cause really, you know, we're right. We're for writing, just helping you write and get better.

[00:52:44] But it's sort of a Trojan horse for self development. You know, all of it is just like, what are the things, what are the tangible things that you want to do that you're like, yeah, I want to, you know, build a product or solve this problem. But it's like, what do you really want to do? You know? And it's really like that goes a [00:53:00] mile deep.

[00:53:00] So that's super cool.

[00:53:02] Yeah. Yeah. And we have a very similar, that's kind of how we treat, um, notion mastery at this point. Like we have a pretty, a pretty good, uh, system now where. We have a, a cycle of showing up and delivering workshops per month. We do office hours and things like that. And so there's kind of a nice little churnal, churning along business.

[00:53:20] And so we can use that area and, and the space to develop some, some of these, uh, parallel ideas. And yeah, I've described it as similar to a Trojan horse. Somebody called it a virus the other day. Um. Because we were talking about productivity and stuff, and I was talking about how, yeah, like, oh yeah, like, we find that most of the things that people get stuck on when it comes to productivity are not, how do I notion, but the stuff around energy management, capacity planning, and all this different stuff, and so we were like, yes, come for the notion, stay for the it.

[00:53:56] The, this stuff. Existential crisis? Like, this is the [00:54:00] stuff. Yes. Totally. Totally. So, so yeah, that's the, that's more of, like, I want to, I want to develop more of that side of things. The, the existential crisis side of things. Um, yeah, it's exciting. Fun stuff is,

[00:54:12] yeah. Love it. What about yourself? Do you have a word for the year or a way of framing?

[00:54:18] Oh yeah.

[00:54:19] My word is action. So. It's kind of right there. It's funny. It's like, that was like a very action me, action y word for me to decide upon, um, which since I'm like, well, emergence would be more elegant, you know, or whatever, we're just going to do some shit this year. And like, you know, like I asked about the podcast, cause like a couple of years ago, it's funny.

[00:54:39] I can go back and look at tiny revolutions issues and be like, yeah, but I, I had this whole like concept for a podcast that I then just. Kept putting off and never did it. And, you know, for all the reasons that you just cite where it's like overwhelmed, you know, procrastination, whatever it was. Um, but I don't know, you're inspiring me.

[00:54:56] Maybe that'll be one of my

[00:54:57] actions. That's something you're thinking about as a medium. [00:55:00] Yeah.

[00:55:00] Yeah. Bringing it back. Um, just, you know, and not even having have to be something, you know, huge, but just more like conversations with really interesting people who are creating stuff, you

[00:55:12] know.

[00:55:13] Integrating Podcasting into Courses and Coaching
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[00:55:13] I definitely recommend checking out what Brett Kistler and Joe Hudson are doing with the Art of Accomplishment podcast.

[00:55:20] I really like how it's sort of integrated into the program. So they actually do these episodic series, which are like four or five episodes, on the frameworks. And that's actually For example, we just started the Great Decisions course, and our first assignment for the weekend is to listen to two podcasts that they've already produced.

[00:55:38] So it becomes this beautiful, like, sequence, or not even a sequence, but an ecosystem of, like, people can listen to the podcast independent of the course and get, get these transformational, you know, learnings, but when What they're actually delivering the the podcast as part of the course and part of the coaching material in a way So maybe there's a nice little feed synchronicity there Yeah, you [00:56:00] where the fire inside could have a podcast and and like week one check in in the forums Set up your one on one with me and go listen to number two podcast, you know So you have like that it's it's all sort of part of the same thing but can be Uh, extracted and, and delivered independently for, like, even teasers for what kind of stuff you're doing in the, in the course and the coaching.

[00:56:23] And if you're already

[00:56:23] putting your ideas out there, already through writing, it's just another, another medium, right, to do double duty.

[00:56:30] Yeah. Totally. It's, it's funny because like in some ways I'm just a way better talker, you know, and so it's just sort of like, I just need to just do it, um,

[00:56:41] all in good time.

[00:56:42] And the AI tools as well to kind of extract and do the show notes and all that, like you might even find some of your writing gets easier because you talk it out and then you've got this. Yeah, and it's just there. Yeah. Yeah. I vote yes.

[00:56:55] Thank you. Like and subscribe. Have you guys published your, uh, have you guys published your [00:57:00] like.

[00:57:00] Um, tool stack and I got to run in a second, but your tool stack for producing the podcast. I personally would be very

[00:57:06] curious about that. We'll put it together and share it with you. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:57:11] Follow Sara
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[00:57:11] Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Sara. Um, where can people find out more about the fire inside and tiny revolutions and sign up for your newsletter?

[00:57:20] The

[00:57:20] simplest course of action would just be to go to SaraCampbell. co, um, Sara without an H, Campbell, and, um, and you'll see a little bit about me. So newsletter, coaching, Zen stuff, foster, um, it's all there. Um, yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed meeting you guys and,

[00:57:40] um, yeah, it's great to meet.

[00:57:42] Yeah. Okay. Have a good weekend on the internet. See you on the internet. Bye for now.